SENIORS CONTEST

Gosh, as all the legends get older, this sport sure
is getting prissy.
I'm all for safe... but sterile? ;-)


I get tired of the low-finish proponents talking about
being braver, more skilled or less prissy.

If these things are so important to u....why not finish
every flight this way? I still manage to go to the
airport without being 'worried or scared' and fly without
doing the damn things.

U guys are coming dangerously close to appearing to
push a macho-man agenda to justify this manuever

Wow, JJ. You're proving a point that scares me. Pilots genuinely don't
understand how finishes work. You are addressing one scenario only...
finishers from all points on the compass. See my previous post and
retry the math based on the numbers I offered.

Ah well. I know what I prefer. Someone will change the rules, and we'll
deal with them. Let's just hope we don't discover a new set of
unpleasant variables the first time we collect a furball at the finish
cyclinder on a blue AST day.

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...


If these things are so important to u....why not finish
every flight this way?

Maybe it will scare you just thinking about it but we DO finish every flight
this way in Arizona! In fact on a day that none of us could get over tow
release height I saw one of my esteemed colleagues do a pass down the runway
at about 50 feet. He was having fun and we all enjoyed watching it since it
was pretty much the highlight of the day. It is nothing less than a
precision manuever and if it bothers you and you don't have the skills to
perform it then by no means are any of us pushing you to do it but please do
not criticize those of us that enjoy it and do it well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Gary,

Some of the emotion centers on being forced to accept the lowest common
denominator. I'm not rationalizing the relative safety of the finish
gate so much as I'm questioning the false security of the cylinder.

Never trust simple solutions. They are usually supported by complex
excuses.

U and I are not going to agree on this...just give
the 'skills to do this' nonsense a rest.

What we choose to do is not linked to skills....

U wanna do this every flight...be my guest




At 02:30 18 March 2005, Kilo Charlie wrote:

'Stewart Kissel' wrote in
message ...


If these things are so important to u....why not finish
every flight this way?

Maybe it will scare you just thinking about it but
we DO finish every flight
this way in Arizona! In fact on a day that none of
us could get over tow
release height I saw one of my esteemed colleagues
do a pass down the runway
at about 50 feet. He was having fun and we all enjoyed
watching it since it
was pretty much the highlight of the day. It is nothing
less than a
precision manuever and if it bothers you and you don't
have the skills to
perform it then by no means are any of us pushing you
to do it but please do
not criticize those of us that enjoy it and do it well.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

At 00:30 18 March 2005, wrote:
I don't understand the talk about 'conflicts' in the
finish cylinder.
Everybody is inbound on a radial, heading for the center
of the
cylinder, when you reach 1 mile, your clock stops.
Where is the
conflict? Lots of sky out there, 5280 X 3.1416 X 2
= 33,175 feet around
it, each radial = 91 feet at 1 mile. There is no 'head-on'
conflict,
because the guy coming at you is on the other side
of the cylinder
which is 2 miles away. And we don't have my favorite
little jewel,
'hooking the gate'.
Let me take a crack at the numbers; The finish line
is 1000 meters
(3281 feet), but we don't use all of it because we
aim for the closest
corner, when straight on, we center punch it at the
GPS coordinates. So
lets divide the finish line by 8 to get 410 feet which
I will call the
target area (area where a conflict might happen).
The finish cylinder circumference is 33,175, but lets
take the worst
case where everybody is coming from the same turn point
and divide it
by the same factor of 8 to give us the distance in
the 45 degree hunk
of pie we're all headed for. That's 4147feet and almost
exactly 10
times more distance in the cylinder target area as
in the finish line
target area. I'm going to say there is 10 times more
chance of a
conflict at the finish line than there is at the finish
cylinder
JJ



If you look at actual contest finishes from the IGC
files you'll find 45 degrees is way too big, but this
is beside the point. The conflicts I have personally
experienced have to do with what people do in the interval
between the edge of the cylinder and the airport. With
a gate the sequencing of finishers is established well
out on final glide since most are on parallel paths
and the transition from finish to landing is pretty
orderly because you have a good sense where everyone
is and what they are doing. With the cylinder I have
found that pilots mill about at various speeds and
altitudes within the cylinder, heading generally towards
the pattern IP, but not directly and not on parallel
paths. You have no idea where anyone is or what the
landing sequence is. Is it a lot worse? No. It is better
or safer? Not obvious in my experience.

9B

At 02:30 18 March 2005, Kilo Charlie wrote:

'Stewart Kissel' wrote in
message ...


If these things are so important to u....why not finish
every flight this way?

Maybe it will scare you just thinking about it but
we DO finish every flight
this way in Arizona!

Yup, consistent with local conditions and safety considerations
- like anything you do in flying.

Maybe we should have contest tasks that are restricted
to gliding distance from the home field and only allow
one competitor on the course at a time - that would
help safety a lot.

:-)

9B

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message .

What we choose to do is not linked to skills....


Maybe this explains some things..... ;-)

KC

At 02:00 18 March 2005, Stewart Kissel wrote:
I get tired of the low-finish proponents talking about
being braver, more skilled or less prissy.

If these things are so important to u....why not finish
every flight this way? I still manage to go to the
airport without being 'worried or scared' and fly without
doing the damn things.

U guys are coming dangerously close to appearing to
push a macho-man agenda to justify this manuever


I agree - since this is about personal preference and
not safety, we should not ascribe wuss status to those
who prefer not fly a particular way, or macho status
to those who do. By the same token, it's equally unjust
to call something unsafe simply because it's not within
a particular individual's personal preference.

Everyone should fly within their personal comfort zone
- but we shouldn't legislate to the most restrictive
preference. If you don't like finishing below 1, 2
or 3,000', don't, but let's not write the rules that
way - otherwise someone will want us to ban cross-country
flying altogether.

9B

I disagree, Andy. Using your rational we could safely raise the nations
highway speed to 100. If you feel confident and know your abilities, go
ahead and drive 100. If not, don't do that. Problem is, not all us
incompetent folks know we're incompetent. Rules must be written to
protect the new / incompetent pilot. I know of 5 accidents associated
with the finish line and we just had a near-miss at the line.......10
or 15 feet..............Wow.
Think about that folks, one more liability suit and we might not be
able to find an insurance company to cover what we're doing. That would
solve this finish gate controversy, once and for all. No more contests!

Another troubling issue with me is our flirting with the FAR's. I can't
remember a site where I wasn't below 500 feet over people, places or
things as I made my dive through the finish line. Even at Hobbs, which
has got to be the most wide open place in the world, I was close to the
limit as I crossed the highway, finishing from the east, then I flew
over the golf course and over the tie-downs, before hitting the line at
50 feet. The feds don't enforce all the rules, they can't, but just
have an accident and watch the rule book come out.

Anybody want to talk about our pull-up being called acrobatic? "A
maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircrafts
attitude..................not neccesary for normal flight" Not to be
initiated below 1500 feet, how about 50 feet? and with spectators "open
air assembly of persons".

There is a better way,
JJ Sinclair