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#21
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Comair Pilot Error
"C. Massey" wrote in message news:tVWIg.3722 OK... But what I don't understand is why would they have two runways that are the same surface width, but it is listed as a 75 ft runway they way it is marked? It seems to me that if they are the same surface width, they would mark both of them the same usable width. Probably something as simple as their ongoing maintenance budget. Most planes that can operate in 3500 ft don't need a 150 ft width, and most planes that need this width probably couldn't function on a 3500 ft runway. Couple that with weight bearing capacity limitations, and the Lexington folk probably figured there was no point in continuing to require maintenance and upkeep on the outer areas of the pavement. In fact, I gather from some reports that there hasn't been a great deal of recent maintenance performed on that entire runway. |
#22
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Comair Pilot Error
AS I gather from reading the news as the NTSB and news media
release data, runway 26 had been operating in the day time and the runway light had been NOTAM'd OTS.. But the lights were ON again. Perhaps the crew did not expect to have runway 26 lighted and when they saw it, assumed it was 22. As has been said, they should have checked the compass and perhaps even the LOC , but they did not perhaps because VFR taxiing is so easy and requires minimal crew attention. It was reported that the First Officer [the survivor] was flying so that means the Caption was taxiing, since the nose wheel steering is probably only on the left side. This also means that the co-pilot did not have a good view of the taxi route and left turn on the runway. I do hope the co-pilot is able to talk, to fill in the details that are not spoken on the CVR. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P "Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message oups.com... |I am getting tired of comments like "controller should have warned the | pilots", or "taxiway was confusing", or "runway lights were off" etc.. | One could not find a better example of a pure and simple pilot error. | The runway was clear, the weather was VFR, and the airplane was working | fine. It is highly likely that this was the only airplane maneuvering | at the airport. Even if the controller had cleared him to takeoff on | runway 26, the responsibility would have been on the pilot to decline | that clearance. Yet, a perfectly good airplane was run off the runway | and ploughed into the woods. | | NTSB is investigating whether the pilots had coffee that morning, and | how much sleep they got. This is a futile exercise. Taxiing and | departing from a relatively quiet airport under VFR conditions is an | extremely low workload situation. We are not talking about shooting a | non-precision approach to minimums in a thunderstorm after a full day | of flying. A pilot should be able to do this even if he had partied all | night at the bar. What happened was gross negligence. | | I shudder to think that my wife and baby flew the Comair CRJ only a few | days prior to this accident. Fortunately they are flying back with me | in our trusty GA airplane. I feel a lot better about it than trusting | my family to stupid mistakes that even my students pilots know how to | avoid. I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the | right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything. | |
#23
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Comair Pilot Error
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message One could not find a better example of a pure and simple pilot error. NTSB is investigating whether the pilots had coffee that morning, and how much sleep they got. This is a futile exercise. Well. So much for amateur opinions. Tell me, Andrew, in whatever field it is in which you call yourself professional, are you also in the habit of reaching conclusions without gathering pertinent facts? Do you approve or disapprove projects without considering relevant factors? Time was, I used to make absolute statements like yours when researching aircraft accidents. It was a long time ago. I was 20, still in school. |
#24
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Comair Pilot Error
As for doing a compass cross-check on line up, windshield
heat was probably ON and that can cause errors in the compass of 30-45 degrees, but the slaved systems are independent of each other and I doubt that the crew would take-off with either system flagged and a cross-check of the pilot and co-pilot HSI is on the check list. Back in the late 60's when I was a new PP, I flew from Illinois to Wyoming, taking two friends on a hunting trip. Departing Joe Foss airport just after dark, I asked ground for progressive taxi since I had never been their before. They did a nice job. The controller said, "You can do your run-up there" and when I called ready the controller cleared me without delay. I turned onto the "runway" and began a take-off roll, aligned with the row of white lights. But within a few seconds I realized something was wrong and aborted. We then bounced around in some tall grass [enough bouncing that the landing lights failed]. The controller asked "55Q, are you having trouble?" to which I replied a little latter as we got back to the pavement after a 180 in the grass, "Not anymore." I taxied back and had the FBO inspect the airplane for damage, there was none and replace the landing light bulbs. A look at the airport diagram showed the problem, they had been working on the taxiway lights and the blue covers were not installed and the taxiway and runways came together in a V with bit of taxiway at the bottom. My takeoff was into the open V. Thankfully, the grass was smooth, no drainage ditches [rapid prayers for no ditches, rocks or fences worked]. That is when I learned and added a compass check before take-off. Been there, done that and survived. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ink.net... | | "Peter Duniho" wrote in message | ... | "Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message | oups.com... | [...] I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the | right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything. | | You have never made a single mistake, ever, while flying an airplane? | | IMHO, your anger is misplaced. It's not like the pilots made the mistake | on purpose. And so far, there's not any indication that they did | something blatantly irresponsible that led to their mistake. | | Yes there most certainly is, and its more than an indication. Its a fact | that they either accepted a line up check on their HSI's telling them they | were on the wrong runway or they didn't make a correct runway lineup check. | Either way, it was a fatal error not to have made the lineup check or making | the check incorrectly. There is no way around the fact that they made the | takeoff on the wrong runway. This indicates an incorrect reading on the HSI | for the right runway or starting the run without a verifying check on the | means in the aircraft to verify the right runway. | Even if it can be argued that both HSI's were out, the mag compass would | also have had to be non operational. Last but not least, if ALL means of | verifying the correct runway were non functioning, that would mean they | accepted the runway they were on as the right runway without a verifying | lineup check. | No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the | simple fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to | them. | Dudley Henriques | | |
#25
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Comair Pilot Error
wrote in message ...... Since that could only have happened if the plane whacked into it on its takeoff roll not having begun rotation, Not necessarily true, ramapriya. Even in normal operation, a loaded airplane will continue on the runway some distance after rotation. If rotated before full flying speed, as appears to have happened in this case, the craft could continue on the mains for quite a substantial distance. |
#26
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Comair Pilot Error
Transport landing lights are much more powerful that car
headlights. They can light the landing area like daylight from 500 feet up and a 1/2 mile away. But on take-off, the nose is raised and the lights are probably not aligned with the ground after rotation. If you look at the photographs of the airport, the fence was 500 feet or more from the end of the paved runway, sighting the fence may have been the clue that first alerted the crew to the problem and made then begin rotation. [guess]. They did not abort due to the rough runway, the different lights, the compass, but they did get some weight on the wings and they dragged the tail skid, Vmu is not a normal planned TO procedure, so they knew at the end. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P wrote in message ups.com... | Dudley Henriques wrote: | | If you do make that mistake, you will most likely either be dead or out of a job. | | | Thanks, mate. | | Reports suggest that the plane hit a perimeter fence. Since that could | only have happened if the plane whacked into it on its takeoff roll not | having begun rotation, it's obvious that the pilots didn't sight it. | Makes me want to ask how effective landing lights are, normally? Are | they as good to pilots as car headlights are to drivers? My hunch is | they're not... since you don't expect traffic in your way in airplanes | | | Ramapriya | |
#27
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Comair Pilot Error
It is cheaper to only pave and maintain a 75 foot wide
surface, often the original runways in this country were laid down during WWII as military training bases. Wide runways allowed formation take-offs and landings. After the war, the cities were given control of the airport and the city would just pave the center with asphalt over the crumbling concrete. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P "C. Massey" wrote in message ... | | "Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message | oups.com... | I am getting tired of comments like "controller should have warned the | pilots", or "taxiway was confusing", or "runway lights were off" etc.. | One could not find a better example of a pure and simple pilot error. | The runway was clear, the weather was VFR, and the airplane was working | fine. It is highly likely that this was the only airplane maneuvering | at the airport. Even if the controller had cleared him to takeoff on | runway 26, the responsibility would have been on the pilot to decline | that clearance. Yet, a perfectly good airplane was run off the runway | and ploughed into the woods. | | NTSB is investigating whether the pilots had coffee that morning, and | how much sleep they got. This is a futile exercise. Taxiing and | departing from a relatively quiet airport under VFR conditions is an | extremely low workload situation. We are not talking about shooting a | non-precision approach to minimums in a thunderstorm after a full day | of flying. A pilot should be able to do this even if he had partied all | night at the bar. What happened was gross negligence. | | I shudder to think that my wife and baby flew the Comair CRJ only a few | days prior to this accident. Fortunately they are flying back with me | in our trusty GA airplane. I feel a lot better about it than trusting | my family to stupid mistakes that even my students pilots know how to | avoid. I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the | right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything. | | | | I have a question. I will say right off of the bat that I do not have any | pilot ratings, but I do have A&P ratings, so I am somewhat familiar with | FAR's. I am unfamiliar with any SOP's. | | 1. Is the ATC responsible for making sure the aircraft is on the correct | runway? | | 2. Aren't there check's that are made from inside the cockpit to assure they | are on the correct runway? | | 3. Looking at the two runways using google earth, it looks as though the | actual pavement is the same width on both runways in question, but all of | the documents that I have seen show a 75 ft and a 150 ft runway. Why is | this? Someone mentioned the 75 ft runway is actually 150 ft wide, but the | markings make it 75 ft usable. Why would that be? | | | Thanks for your answers... | | | | | --- | avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. | Virus Database (VPS): 0635-1, 08/28/2006 | Tested on: 8/29/2006 7:34:06 AM | avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. | http://www.avast.com | | | |
#28
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Comair Pilot Error
Only the area between the with lines is "usable."
"C. Massey" wrote in message ... | | "Ron Lee" wrote in message | ... | 3. Looking at the two runways using google earth, it looks as though the | actual pavement is the same width on both runways in question, but all of | the documents that I have seen show a 75 ft and a 150 ft runway. Why is | this? Someone mentioned the 75 ft runway is actually 150 ft wide, but the | markings make it 75 ft usable. Why would that be? | | Look closely at a picture of Rwy 26 and you will see solid (white?) | lines either side of the centerline that are probably 75 feet apart. | | | | OK... But what I don't understand is why would they have two runways that | are the same surface width, but it is listed as a 75 ft runway they way it | is marked? It seems to me that if they are the same surface width, they | would mark both of them the same usable width. | | | | | --- | avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. | Virus Database (VPS): 0635-1, 08/28/2006 | Tested on: 8/29/2006 8:02:18 AM | avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. | http://www.avast.com | | | |
#29
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Comair Pilot Error
Jim Macklin wrote:
It was reported that the First Officer [the survivor] was flying so that means the Caption was taxiing, since the nose wheel steering is probably only on the left side. This also means that the co-pilot did not have a good view of the taxi route and left turn on the runway. There is only a tiller on the captain's side. There's a limitted amount of nose wheel steering through the rudder pedals, but insufficient for the hard right turn onto the runway here. |
#30
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Comair Pilot Error
"John Gaquin" wrote:
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message One could not find a better example of a pure and simple pilot error. NTSB is investigating whether the pilots had coffee that morning, and how much sleep they got. This is a futile exercise. Well. So much for amateur opinions. Tell me, Andrew, in whatever field it is in which you call yourself professional, are you also in the habit of reaching conclusions without gathering pertinent facts? Do you approve or disapprove projects without considering relevant factors? Time was, I used to make absolute statements like yours when researching aircraft accidents. It was a long time ago. I was 20, still in school. John, I agree with Andrew based upon the facts already known. If further information shows that something happened that would have made almost all other pilots do the same thing then I will admit that my opinion was incorrect and premature. I doubt that it will turn out this way. Ron Lee |
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