The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

guy wrote:
On 10 Dec, 04:22, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

How did they manage with the AV8/Harrier then?

Ski jump off, slow rolling landing on.


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

snipped for brevity

Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.

Probably less than optimal. Large clouds of hot, salt water steam
would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. It would also
be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate
maintenance of both ship and aircraft.

Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the
evaporators.

The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea.
It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski
jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the
aircraft.

http://china-arsenal.blogspot.com/

On Dec 9, 11:22*pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

How about false deck mobile deflectors that would be rolled into
place and exchanged between launches? The tractors exist.

On Dec 10, 12:23*am, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,


*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all

It is a BIG f-ing "oops", and I think that the Navy's RFP is a little
silly. They want a product that doesn't require alteration to the
flight deck, is easily applied and repaired, and doesn't cost much.
Presumably it has to be environmentally friendly too. It wouldn't
surprise me if someone asked for it to be organic as well.

I dunno, I'd assume that NASA could provide some expertise there, but
whether or not the Navy actually is willing to ask for it is another
story.

On Dec 10, 6:26*am, William Black wrote:
guy wrote:
On 10 Dec, 04:22, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

How did *they manage with the AV8/Harrier then?

Ski jump off, *slow rolling landing on.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Here's a V-22 landing and taking off from HMS Illustrious. Any damage
done or a different deck?

http://www.skycontrol.net/helicopter...or-first-time/

"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

snipped for brevity

Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.

Probably less than optimal. Large clouds of hot, salt water steam
would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. It would also
be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate
maintenance of both ship and aircraft.

Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the
evaporators.

The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea.
It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski
jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the
aircraft.

A water cooled heatsink built into a part of the deck designated for "hot"
aircraft makes a lot of sense.

"David E. Powell" wrote in message
...

Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.

Try simple things first! I really doubt that the problem is severe enough to
require a high-tech approach. First, a simple change in procedures to reduce
time with the engines in the vertical position will greatly reduce the problem.
A designated landing pad made of metal that will stand the heat with an
underlayment to prevent heat transfer to the underlying deck will solve the
problem. Yes, the resulting uneven deck would be a PITA for the deck crew, but
the pad would not need to be more than an inch or two thick with tapering edges
for the transition. After the plane departs, a quick hosedown would likely be a
good idea for crew safety & to prevent melted tires.

This issue could hardly be a "surprise" or even a "muddle". The potential
problem of deck heating from VTOL aircraft has been well known for decades.
When I first reported aboard the Guam (LPH-9) the crew were talking about the
deck tests they had done with the (then new & revolutionary) Harrier just weeks
before.

Vaughn

On Dec 9, 11:23*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,



*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all

Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a
wrench on the coating it would be great.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 05:46:12 -0800 (PST), Typhoon502
wrote:

On Dec 10, 12:23*am, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,


*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all

It is a BIG f-ing "oops", and I think that the Navy's RFP is a little
silly. They want a product that doesn't require alteration to the
flight deck, is easily applied and repaired, and doesn't cost much.
Presumably it has to be environmentally friendly too. It wouldn't
surprise me if someone asked for it to be organic as well.

A product that meets your requirement is allum-impregnated teak.
I'd be quite astonished if the navy didn't know it, they read
history too. Of course, splinters from the stuff are painful and
tend to go septic, it costs terribly, . . . .

To me, it looks as if they know that they'll have to cut steel
but need to do some homework first.


I dunno, I'd assume that NASA could provide some expertise there, but
whether or not the Navy actually is willing to ask for it is another
story.

Peter Skelton