The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 10, 2:00 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
wrote:
In electronics, we have similiar problems, we usually solve using Al
heat sinks, ...
Ken-

In my country we put the electronics on the other end of the
airplane.

But tucker "knows everything" as he is wont to tell us.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan wrote:
David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.

It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will
withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft
and deck vehicles.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Indeed. The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but
are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass
coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. They would be
crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre.

Continuous seawater irrigation seems like the best option to me.

On Dec 10, 11:04 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
On Dec 10, 2:00 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



On Dec 10, 7:24 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Dec 10, 8:53 am, "Roger Conroy"
wrote:

"Bill Kambic" wrote in message

.. .

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

snipped for brevity

Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.

Probably less than optimal. Large clouds of hot, salt water steam
would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. It would also
be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate
maintenance of both ship and aircraft.

Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the
evaporators.

The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea.
It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski
jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the
aircraft.

A water cooled heatsink built into a part of the deck designated for "hot"
aircraft makes a lot of sense.

You could have a place underneath to stash beer, like the old sub-
mariners did.

In electronics, we have similiar problems, we usually solve using Al
heat sinks, fan air cooled, as the cheapest. Screw a few Al heat sinks
to the bottom of the locations of the deck permited to take the heat
and engage any fluid to cool it, even water if space is tight, yawn.
Ken

Troll them in the water, saves having all those pipes.

In conventional PC's like you prolly have, is a small fan sitting
on the CPU Al heat sink.
In the high watt stuff, oil circulation is used to cool the active
components I've used.
I'm not keen on oil, a friend of mine had a damn transformer
explode on him and was showered with burning oil, it was not
pretty, and is very painful.
Also in my experience, I had a wood stove that started glowing
low red (over heated, but it was cast iron) so I sprayed it with
water to cool it, and that worked good.
A good cast iron is pretty tough stuff, better than malleable at
high temps I'm told.
Ken

On Dec 9, 9:22*pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.



Distortion or warping of steel plating due to expansion from high
temperatures is a far cry from "melting".

In article ,
Alan Dicey wrote:

Indeed. The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but
are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass
coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. They would be
crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre.

Most of the white areas on the top of the shuttle are nomex blanket
type material. Blending something like that in with non-skid coating
shouldn't be too hard to do, and provide enough thermal insulation.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

On Dec 10, 3:41*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
...
A good cast iron is pretty tough stuff, better than malleable at
high temps I'm told.
Ken-

Good idea, but it's so heavy we'd have to remove some of the cannons.

On Dec 10, 1:02 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 10, 3:41 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

...
A good cast iron is pretty tough stuff, better than malleable at
high temps I'm told.
Ken-

Good idea, but it's so heavy we'd have to remove some of the cannons.

Well ok, but I'm searching for experience, such as fire bricks.
One can have fire-bricks with anthracite coal, burning air fed
that stand up ok. Firebrick is fairly light and cheap.
I guess they can be cast in bound sections.
Ken

On Dec 10, 3:44*pm, "Mr.Smartypants"
wrote:
On Dec 9, 9:22*pm, Mike wrote:



StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.

Distortion or warping of steel plating due to expansion from high
temperatures is a far cry from "melting".

1700 degrees was mentioned in one article.

Distortion or warping of steel plating due to expansion from high
temperatures is a far cry from "melting".

1700 degrees was mentioned in one article.

Hopefully, the airflow would be colder than what's required to start a
wildfire. Missing adequate structural expansion joints, the workaround
would be reflective coating and/or increasing thermal inertia with a
few tons of liquids trapped between the deck and a lining. Other
standard solutions include:

1) Jack in the box type helipads with an engine cold start while
ballistic
2) The ****ing match: Squad-Unbuckle-Ready-Aim-Pee!
3) Mk2 tractor towed movable through-deck holes
4) Frogwatch's spit buckets, a couple

On Dec 10, 3:18*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Dec 10, 1:02 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Dec 10, 3:41 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

...
A good cast iron is pretty tough stuff, better than malleable at
high temps I'm told.
Ken-

Good idea, but it's so heavy we'd have to remove some of the cannons.

Well ok, but I'm searching for experience, such as fire bricks.
One can have fire-bricks with anthracite coal, burning air fed
that stand up ok. Firebrick is fairly light and cheap.
I guess they can be cast in bound sections.
Ken

Last company that did that was in upstate NY. It closed in the last 4
years or so. It was sold to.....drum roll.....China.