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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 11th 09, 12:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 10, 2:59*pm, (John Clear) wrote:
In article ,
Alan Dicey wrote:



Indeed. *The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but
are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass
coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. *They would be
crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre..


Most of the white areas on the top of the shuttle are nomex blanket
type material. *Blending something like that in with non-skid coating
shouldn't be too hard to do, and provide enough thermal insulation.

John
--
John Clear - * * * * * * * * * * * *http://www.clear-prop.org/


Still not really durable enough to handle aircraft weight. Was less
heat resistant than bottom portion. Think of it this way, bottom part
gets really hot on reentry, shields top part. You could see some
scorch marks on most of the post landing photos. Looks like little
black scuff marks on foreward part near wing.

Probably looks like a back to the drawing board moment. Oh, hey,
anybody figure out we're landing on a carrier and we have some really
high exhaust temps....

Remember the old drawing that went around what aerodynamicist built,
weapons guys, all that, and what the customer wanted. Nothing changes.
  #42  
Old December 11th 09, 12:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 10, 2:41*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Dec 10, 11:04 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:



On Dec 10, 2:00 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:


On Dec 10, 7:24 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:


On Dec 10, 8:53 am, "Roger Conroy"
wrote:


"Bill Kambic" wrote in message


.. .


On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote:


snipped for brevity


Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.


Probably less than optimal. *Large clouds of hot, salt water steam
would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. *It would also
be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate
maintenance of both ship and aircraft.


Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the
evaporators.


The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea.
It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski
jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the
aircraft.


A water cooled heatsink built into a part of the deck designated for "hot"
aircraft makes a lot of sense.


You could have a place underneath to stash beer, like the old sub-
mariners did.


In electronics, we have similiar problems, we usually solve using Al
heat sinks, fan air cooled, as the cheapest. Screw a few Al heat sinks
to the bottom of the locations of the deck permited to take the heat
and engage any fluid to cool it, even water if space is tight, yawn..
Ken


Troll them in the water, saves having all those pipes.


In conventional PC's like you prolly have, is a small fan sitting
on the CPU Al heat sink.
In the high watt stuff, oil circulation is used to cool the active
components I've used.
I'm not keen on oil, a friend of mine had a damn transformer
explode on him and was showered with burning oil, it was not
pretty, and is very painful.
Also in my experience, I had a wood stove that started glowing
low red (over heated, but it was cast iron) so I sprayed it with
water to cool it, and that worked good.
A good cast iron is pretty tough stuff, better than malleable at
high temps I'm told.
Ken


Learn that steam burns, did you? Let me guess, you're an engineer.
  #43  
Old December 11th 09, 01:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 10, 1:43*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 10, 2:00*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

wrote:

In electronics, we have similiar problems, we usually solve using Al
heat sinks, ...
Ken-


In my country we put the electronics on the other end of the
airplane.


we don't care. we just go to Congress and say 'you need to support the
troops'. billion here, billion there. what, the electronics goes on
the other end of the airplane???

ka-ching........
  #44  
Old December 11th 09, 01:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 10, 1:00*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Dec 10, 7:24 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:



On Dec 10, 8:53 am, "Roger Conroy"
wrote:


"Bill Kambic" wrote in message


.. .


On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote:


snipped for brevity


Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.


Probably less than optimal. *Large clouds of hot, salt water steam
would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. *It would also
be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate
maintenance of both ship and aircraft.


Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the
evaporators.


The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea.
It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski
jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the
aircraft.


A water cooled heatsink built into a part of the deck designated for "hot"
aircraft makes a lot of sense.


You could have a place underneath to stash beer, like the old sub-
mariners did.


In electronics, we have similiar problems, we usually solve using Al
heat sinks, fan air cooled, as the cheapest. Screw a few Al heat sinks
to the bottom of the locations of the deck permited to take the heat
and engage any fluid to cool it, even water if space is tight, yawn.
Ken


Pray tell, young Skywalker, what type of electronics have you designed
that has a few thousands pounds of metal land on it, controlled by a
navel aviatrix, blasting used JP4 and other noxious and profane gasses
as high speeds and easily a thousand degrees of the Farenheits? I'm
getting a case of beer and a lot of popcorn, this is going to be a
good one.

Note to Wiki: another cite for the 'Why do EE degrees have a BS in
front of them....'
  #45  
Old December 11th 09, 02:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
John Clear
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

In article ,
frank wrote:

Still not really durable enough to handle aircraft weight. Was less
heat resistant than bottom portion. Think of it this way, bottom part
gets really hot on reentry, shields top part. You could see some
scorch marks on most of the post landing photos. Looks like little
black scuff marks on foreward part near wing.


Yeah, the blankets on the top top arent't as heat resistant as the
tiles, but I don't think MV-22 or F-35B exhaust is quite as hot as
hitting the atmosphere at 17,000mph.

Wiki says one type of blanket (FRSI) is good to 700F and another (FIB)
is good to 1200F.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_S...tection_system

Probably looks like a back to the drawing board moment. Oh, hey,
anybody figure out we're landing on a carrier and we have some really
high exhaust temps....


The thermal protection is available, they just need to figure out
the durablity issue. I'm sure for a few billion, someone will be able
to mix some nomex into the non-skit coating.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

  #46  
Old December 11th 09, 06:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

In article
93ee764a-0400-499b-b519-37e47ef04416@v2
5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com,
Richard wrote:

On Dec 9, 11:23*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,



*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009


The Melting Deck Plates Muddle


by James Dunnigan


Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)


The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all


Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a
wrench on the coating it would be great.


Actually I was thinking of what they do
at the launch pad during launch, not the
tiles on the shuttle
  #47  
Old December 11th 09, 08:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 10, 11:58*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
93ee764a-0400-499b-b519-37e47ef04416@v2
5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com,



*Richard wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:23*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,


*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009


The Melting Deck Plates Muddle


by James Dunnigan


Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)


The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all


Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a
wrench on the coating it would be great.


Actually I was thinking of what they do
at the launch pad during launch, not the
tiles on the shuttle


Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I
think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water
infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams
of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust
go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds
that occur. Makes pad much more reusable.

I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes
entire complex much more reusable.

If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the
standard shots from NASA and main engine start.

Awesome. Lots of plumbing though.
  #48  
Old December 11th 09, 01:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 11, 2:42*am, frank wrote:
On Dec 10, 11:58*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-



wrote:
In article
93ee764a-0400-499b-b519-37e47ef04416@v2
5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com,


*Richard wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:23*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote:
In article
3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,


*Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009


The Melting Deck Plates Muddle


by James Dunnigan


Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)


The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs..
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.


Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all


Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a
wrench on the coating it would be great.


Actually I was thinking of what they do
at the launch pad during launch, not the
tiles on the shuttle


Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I
think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water
infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams
of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust
go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds
that occur. Makes pad much more reusable.

I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes
entire complex much more reusable.

If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the
standard shots from NASA and main engine start.

Awesome. Lots of plumbing though.


One of the professed goals of the system is sound suppression. That's
one of the events the crowds come to the launches for---that
magnificent roar like the end of the world.
  #49  
Old December 11th 09, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Ken S. Tucker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 442
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 10, 4:09 pm, frank wrote:
On Dec 10, 1:00 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



On Dec 10, 7:24 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:


On Dec 10, 8:53 am, "Roger Conroy"
wrote:


"Bill Kambic" wrote in message


.. .


On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote:


snipped for brevity


Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.


Probably less than optimal. Large clouds of hot, salt water steam
would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. It would also
be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate
maintenance of both ship and aircraft.


Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the
evaporators.


The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea.
It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski
jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the
aircraft.


A water cooled heatsink built into a part of the deck designated for "hot"
aircraft makes a lot of sense.


You could have a place underneath to stash beer, like the old sub-
mariners did.


In electronics, we have similiar problems, we usually solve using Al
heat sinks, fan air cooled, as the cheapest. Screw a few Al heat sinks
to the bottom of the locations of the deck permited to take the heat
and engage any fluid to cool it, even water if space is tight, yawn.
Ken


Pray tell, young Skywalker, what type of electronics have you designed
that has a few thousands pounds of metal land on it, controlled by a
navel aviatrix, blasting used JP4 and other noxious and profane gasses
as high speeds and easily a thousand degrees of the Farenheits? I'm
getting a case of beer and a lot of popcorn, this is going to be a
good one.

Note to Wiki: another cite for the 'Why do EE degrees have a BS in
front of them....'


Frank, note you've replied to me 3 times, somewhat sarcastically
on a topic that is borderline boring for most, but I own a patent on
a 'new and improved' woodstove, so I have an extra interest and
specialized knowledge on the subject, so I find the problem
intriguing,
About "degrees", and "diploma's" mine are buried somewhere in
archives, rusting away.
Ken
  #50  
Old December 11th 09, 07:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Orval Fairbairn[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 530
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

In article
,
frank wrote:



Actually I was thinking of what they do
at the launch pad during launch, not the
tiles on the shuttle


Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I
think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water
infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams
of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust
go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds
that occur. Makes pad much more reusable.

I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes
entire complex much more reusable.


Nope -- Massive water infusion was used on the Saturn V, IB, Ic, etc.

It helped cool the exhaust gases that impinged on the deflectors. A
direct hit from a rocket motor exhaust of that size would make short
work of any material you could use. As it was, there was still plenty od
flame damage to go around.




If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the
standard shots from NASA and main engine start.

Awesome. Lots of plumbing though.


--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
 




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