Why did Bush join the national guard?

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art,

Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.

Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
pilot.

Applying your convoluted "logic" to your self - you have no right to express
opinions on piloting anything - or on being a commissioned officer with
aircraft command authority.

And your definition of "action" is so screwd up I'm not even going to
comment...

Jack G.

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Jack G"
Date: 9/7/2004 7:54 PM Pacific

Art,

Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.

Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
pilot.

Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was to
put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover? Just
to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly a
good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't dump
bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run,
no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is
a subject you would know nothing about.






Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.


When it comes to doing harm to the enemy, "unarmed airliners" delivering
paratroops isn't so different from bombers delivering bombs.

ArtKramr wrote:

A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.

Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you must have
delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and intercepted by
Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces behind
Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell, Ed
Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets shorter and
shorter....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 9/7/2004 8:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.

Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you must
have
delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and intercepted by
Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces behind
Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell, Ed
Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets shorter
and
shorter....


BUFDRVR



Don't try to mix Ed with the wannabbes on this NG. Ed fought the good fight.
But why are you still on that eternal bomb run that never ends? You have been
on that bomb run for years and never reached the target.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/7/2004 8:38 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.


Arthur Kramer

So if a cargo aircraft is shot down it wasn't lost in action?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/6/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi

-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
fact

In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.

My cousin joined up in 1941.

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you
did
nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he
do
that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he
didn't
****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what
it
was
really like.


Arthur Kramer


Art, show where he took credit or told you how combat really was. I will
watch
with great interest for your answer.

Dan, you must be one incredibly bored person if you are
reduced to waiting for that answer "with great interest".

From: "John Keeney"
Date: 9/8/2004 1:08 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/6/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: Ian MacLure
Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi

-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
fact

In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.

My cousin joined up in 1941.

I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.


So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you
did
nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he
do
that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he
didn't
****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what
it
was
really like.


Arthur Kramer


Art, show where he took credit or told you how combat really was. I will
watch
with great interest for your answer.

Dan, you must be one incredibly bored person if you are
reduced to waiting for that answer "with great interest".

It's a line from Fail Safe which I was watching at the time. I know he will
never answer the question.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "ian maclure"
Date: 9/7/2004 9:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:41:47 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

He was a bombardier.
They were notorious for needing help ( cf: Yossarian )

IBM

_____________________________

And you were?

I am. Present tense. As in coterminous with thepresent.

IBM


In other words nothing military.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:38:23 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

[snip]

In other words nothing military.

Not for some 25+ years now.
But then I'm not the one harping on it, am I?
I make no claim to any military virtue beyond
being competent in the basic military skills
of an infantryman.

IBM

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