Comair Pilot Error

I am getting tired of comments like "controller should have warned the
pilots", or "taxiway was confusing", or "runway lights were off" etc..
One could not find a better example of a pure and simple pilot error.
The runway was clear, the weather was VFR, and the airplane was working
fine. It is highly likely that this was the only airplane maneuvering
at the airport. Even if the controller had cleared him to takeoff on
runway 26, the responsibility would have been on the pilot to decline
that clearance. Yet, a perfectly good airplane was run off the runway
and ploughed into the woods.

NTSB is investigating whether the pilots had coffee that morning, and
how much sleep they got. This is a futile exercise. Taxiing and
departing from a relatively quiet airport under VFR conditions is an
extremely low workload situation. We are not talking about shooting a
non-precision approach to minimums in a thunderstorm after a full day
of flying. A pilot should be able to do this even if he had partied all
night at the bar. What happened was gross negligence.

I shudder to think that my wife and baby flew the Comair CRJ only a few
days prior to this accident. Fortunately they are flying back with me
in our trusty GA airplane. I feel a lot better about it than trusting
my family to stupid mistakes that even my students pilots know how to
avoid. I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the
right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...] I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the
right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything.

You have never made a single mistake, ever, while flying an airplane?

IMHO, your anger is misplaced. It's not like the pilots made the mistake on
purpose. And so far, there's not any indication that they did something
blatantly irresponsible that led to their mistake. For someone who has
absolutely ZERO first-hand knowledge of the accident, nor any reliable
second-hand knowledge for that matter, you sure are throwing some pretty
strong accusations around.

*Maybe* if you've never made a mistake in your life, anger *might* be a
valid response. Otherwise, "there but for the grace of God go I" seems more
appropriate to me (whether or not you believe in God, the meaning of the
sentiment is clear and valid).

By the way, while the weather was VFR, it was an hour before sunrise. That
is, basically still pitch dark. The poorer quality of runway may not have
been apparent lit only by the airplane's lights, and there may have been
some fluke with the signage that led the pilots to think they were at the
correct runway. Your assertion that fatigue or the early hour could not
have been an issue is simply absurd. There are at least a dozen other
factors that have already been reported that could have been contributory,
and there are dozens, if not hundreds more that no one has even thought of
or identified yet.

I'll say one thing though...you're probably a blast at the Lynch Mobs of
America convention. I hope the rest of us can at least wait until the
investigation is complete before we start talking crucifiction.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...] I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the
right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything.

You have never made a single mistake, ever, while flying an airplane?

IMHO, your anger is misplaced. It's not like the pilots made the mistake
on purpose. And so far, there's not any indication that they did
something blatantly irresponsible that led to their mistake.

Yes there most certainly is, and its more than an indication. Its a fact
that they either accepted a line up check on their HSI's telling them they
were on the wrong runway or they didn't make a correct runway lineup check.
Either way, it was a fatal error not to have made the lineup check or making
the check incorrectly. There is no way around the fact that they made the
takeoff on the wrong runway. This indicates an incorrect reading on the HSI
for the right runway or starting the run without a verifying check on the
means in the aircraft to verify the right runway.
Even if it can be argued that both HSI's were out, the mag compass would
also have had to be non operational. Last but not least, if ALL means of
verifying the correct runway were non functioning, that would mean they
accepted the runway they were on as the right runway without a verifying
lineup check.
No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the
simple fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to
them.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:

No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the simple
fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to them.


Just for curiosity - had the takeoff been pulled off and the airplane
carried on, would the FAA have warned the pilots nonetheless or would
nobody have heard of it at all?

Ramapriya

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just for curiosity - had the takeoff been pulled off and the airplane
carried on, would the FAA have warned the pilots nonetheless or would
nobody have heard of it at all?

I guess that depends on who knew the takeoff occurred on the wrong runway,
and whether they would say anything. It seems likely that the controller
wasn't paying attention, so he probably wouldn't have even known. That
leaves the pilots, and they probably wouldn't say anything. Though, one
hopes they would at least file an ASRS report describing the situation (and
perhaps the surviving pilot still will).

Pete

wrote in message
oups.com...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the
simple
fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to
them.


Just for curiosity - had the takeoff been pulled off and the airplane
carried on, would the FAA have warned the pilots nonetheless or would
nobody have heard of it at all?

Ramapriya

Difficult to say really. Things like that can get very arbitrary and
selective.
Had they the runway to actually make the takeoff, and the tower noticed it
after the fact, it would probably have been a crap shoot as to whether or
not the controller would have keyed the mike and told them. Once that had
been done, a report would have to be filed as the incident would be on the
tower tape.
I'm just guessing, but I would think they would have nailed him, as the
responsibility for the commit to takeoff on the wrong runway would lie with
the PIC rather than the tower, and noticing something as serious as this
would most likely be a reflex action for a controller.
For the pilots; another crap shoot. If they declare, its a trip to the front
office as a minimum and a possible loss of the job in the balance. On the
other hand, had they made it unnoticed by the tower, and picked up the error
by themselves, it would have been another crap shoot as to which one of them
would hit the mike and spill the beans. My understanding is that the first
officer made the takeoff. That leaves the Captain to answer how he LET the
first officer make the takeoff. The Captain gets nailed either way.
These things are never easy to answer. The plain simple truth is that
professional aviation is an endeavor where people make mistakes. The problem
is that in professional aviation, mistakes like this one are not allowed.
I noticed one poster addressing the issue by attempting to deal with the
"anybody can make a mistake" scenario. In the world of professional
aviation, this simply won't wash.
The trick to survival in this business is not to make the mistake in the
first place. If you do make that mistake, you will most likely either be
dead or out of a job.
In the ideal world, two pilots would make a mistake, catch it after they did
it, then report it and take part in a process that would help prevent the
next two pilots from making the same mistake. In the real world, you report
doing something like this and the outcome can be career ending.
In a white paper I wrote once on low altitude demonstration flying I began
with a simple comment in the preface. That comment read as follows and hung
framed over my desk for over 30 years;
" I once had a friend. Jim was one horrific flying son-of-a-bitch. He was
the best natural born pilot I've ever known. In his entire career, he only
made one mistake.
Jim's dead."
Dudley Henriques

In article ,
says...
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...] I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the
right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything.

You have never made a single mistake, ever, while flying an airplane?

Have you (now lets get the context right) ever taken off on the wrong
runway?

I haven't, I bet the poster hasn't either.

But you have huh?

No - you've provided a different question - thereby completely changing
the original point - that taking off on the wrong runway is not a simple
mistake, it's a very very serious one. It's on par with without the
gear down.


IMHO, your anger is misplaced. It's not like the pilots made the mistake on
purpose. And so far, there's not any indication that they did something
blatantly irresponsible that led to their mistake. For someone who has
absolutely ZERO first-hand knowledge of the accident, nor any reliable
second-hand knowledge for that matter, you sure are throwing some pretty
strong accusations around.

With all due respect, the mistake made is *very* serious...
* throwing a divider at school when you were 15 and getting someone in
the leg is a stupid thing to do.
* driving drunk at high speed and killing someone (by accident) - well.

*Maybe* if you've never made a mistake in your life, anger *might* be a
valid response. Otherwise, "there but for the grace of God go I" seems more
appropriate to me (whether or not you believe in God, the meaning of the
sentiment is clear and valid).

By the way, while the weather was VFR, it was an hour before sunrise. That
is, basically still pitch dark. The poorer quality of runway may not have
been apparent lit only by the airplane's lights, and there may have been
some fluke with the signage that led the pilots to think they were at the
correct runway. Your assertion that fatigue or the early hour could not
have been an issue is simply absurd. There are at least a dozen other
factors that have already been reported that could have been contributory,
and there are dozens, if not hundreds more that no one has even thought of
or identified yet.

You're making your own unvalidated assertions now.

I'll say one thing though...you're probably a blast at the Lynch Mobs of
America convention. I hope the rest of us can at least wait until the
investigation is complete before we start talking crucifiction.

I'll agree with you on that point.. however, it's not looking good for
the pilots. Is it?

--
Duncan

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
NTSB is investigating whether the pilots had coffee that morning, and
how much sleep they got. This is a futile exercise. Taxiing and
departing from a relatively quiet airport under VFR conditions is an
extremely low workload situation. We are not talking about shooting a
non-precision approach to minimums in a thunderstorm after a full day
of flying. A pilot should be able to do this even if he had partied all
night at the bar. What happened was gross negligence.



How's the view from in there?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Dudley Henriques wrote:

If you do make that mistake, you will most likely either be dead or out of a job.


Thanks, mate.

Reports suggest that the plane hit a perimeter fence. Since that could
only have happened if the plane whacked into it on its takeoff roll not
having begun rotation, it's obvious that the pilots didn't sight it.
Makes me want to ask how effective landing lights are, normally? Are
they as good to pilots as car headlights are to drivers? My hunch is
they're not... since you don't expect traffic in your way in airplanes


Ramapriya

wrote:
Since that could
only have happened if the plane whacked into it on its takeoff roll not
having begun rotation, it's obvious that the pilots didn't sight it.

Hitting a fence and rotating are not mutually exclusive. There has been
an allegation somewhere that there was actually a drag mark that may
have been caused by over-rotating... in a desperate attempt to make it
into the air..

Sounds like the choice was - try and abort and go off the end.. or try
and muscle it into the air. Snap decisions suck when both choices mean
you lose.

Dave