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#141
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Stall warnings
On Sep 8, 9:32*am, Mike wrote:
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on. The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under stress. UH |
#142
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Stall warnings
Mike wrote:
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on. Another thing then to remember to turn on and get right by pilots who are failing to do/notice basic things already. Need to be turned on before takeoff and before the pattern entry/high speed pass so probably timed before usual landing checks. Darryl |
#143
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Stall warnings
Mike wrote:
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on. Ah and no - for take off this needs to be ON for when the rope breaks or towplane or winch has a problem and the glider will be landing. This is a scenario where pilots have fatal stall/spin accidents. False stall alarms during takeoff are potential distractions that would need to be at an acceptable level. Darryl |
#144
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Stall warnings
"Mike" wrote in message ... I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on. Good idea, but why have a switch for the pilot to forget to operate? Why not simply arm/disarm the system via a micro switch on the landing gear? Fixed gear - put the micro switch on the spoilers. BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated, likewise mnemonics, and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any better pilots than us mere mortals. They simply took the steps to add another rating. I've also wondered why folks say we should fly with an instructor at the beginning of the season because we're "rusty". What about the instructor? How come he's not rusty? And, yes, I've known some mighty fine and capable instructors. Likewise, I've known some that I wouldn't fly with. (Flame suit on) |
#145
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Stall warnings
On Sep 8, 9:12*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message ... I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on. Good idea, but why have a switch for the pilot to forget to operate? *Why not simply arm/disarm the system via a micro switch on the landing gear? Fixed gear - put the micro switch on the spoilers. BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated, likewise mnemonics, and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any better pilots than us mere mortals. *They simply took the steps to add another rating. *I've also wondered why folks say we should fly with an instructor at the beginning of the season because we're "rusty". *What about the instructor? *How come he's not rusty? *And, yes, I've known some mighty fine and capable instructors. *Likewise, I've known some that I wouldn't fly with. (Flame suit on) Glide computers are becoming ubiquitous and they have the ability to provide data on AGL height (simulated radar altimeter) using their terrain elevation database. This could automatically set the stall warning to sensitive when within 1000' of the ground and either turn it off or set it to insensitive above that. |
#146
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Stall warnings
"Dan Marotta" wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message ... I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on. Good idea, but why have a switch for the pilot to forget to operate? Why not simply arm/disarm the system via a micro switch on the landing gear? Fixed gear - put the micro switch on the spoilers. Bzzzzzztttt (sorry that was my r.a.s. bad idea alarm going off. I normally have to keep it turned off to but...). This idea probably would not help the fatal crash that started this thread. For fatal stall/spins turning base/final I expect the spoilers to be closed in most cases. And we have pilots who forget to put the gear down. I suspect there is some correlation with not putting the gear down and being harried/behind the aircraft to start with and therefore maybe more needing of a stall warning device. It would also be bad to have an alarm sound the moment the spoiler is pulled or gear goes down--these often happen close to the ground and at critical times that could distract the pilot. Does the pilot who gets an alarm on lowering the gear or popping the spoilers then lower the nose or close the spoilers/raise the gear to stop the silencing alarm or sit there confused for a few seconds wondering why they have an alarm for gear up when they just put it down. Remember the pilot that matters here is already behind the aircraft/confused and may not react correctly I am not opposed to the idea of stall warming devices but they have to be on all the time and need to have a low false alarm/annoyance rate and be affordable/installable. Again I would love to hear experiences from folks flying with the currently available stall warning devices. For all I know might already have usable systems out there... BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated, likewise mnemonics, and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any better pilots than us mere mortals. They simply took the steps to add another rating. I've also wondered why folks say we should fly with an instructor at the beginning of the season because we're "rusty". What about the instructor? How come he's not rusty? And, yes, I've known some mighty fine and capable instructors. Likewise, I've known some that I wouldn't fly with. (Flame suit on) Well clearly on average that instructor has done many flights recently before your spring refresher flight with them. In many places they teach all winter. On some places instructors will check each other out and/or make sure they have flown themselves early in the season. If you cannot find an instructor who you want to fly with at the start of a season or at other times who can help improve your flying skills, brush you up on emergency procedures or just get a critique of your flying skill then you are either an amazing pilot or are not looking around very hard to find some of the great instructors out there. Darryl |
#147
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Stall warnings
Bill D wrote:
[snip] Glide computers are becoming ubiquitous and they have the ability to provide data on AGL height (simulated radar altimeter) using their terrain elevation database. This could automatically set the stall warning to sensitive when within 1000' of the ground and either turn it off or set it to insensitive above that. Bzzzzzzzzzztttttttttttttttttttt. |
#148
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Stall warnings
Maybe the stall warning should actually measure the stall.
A small hole (static sized) on the top skin of the wing, back half, would indicate a sharp drop in pressure when separation starts ahead of it, along with characteristc turbulence. Connect it to a pressure transducer, run wires down the wing to a plug that automatically makes contact on assembly, and you have a stall warning that measures exactly that -- stalls. It would account automatically for water ballast, spoilers, flaps, landing gear, rain, bugs, and all the other things that make airspeed or even angle of attack based approaches fail. It would be useful in a thermal -- you actually don't want to thermal at the edge of a stall, where separation is already starting. You want to thermal 1-2 knots more than that. So the ``stall warning'' going off would be useful feedback "you're thermaling inefficiently" as well as a last ditch attempt to wake up a distracted pilot in trouble. And, while I'm dreaming, it should have voice! The famous last words are always "there was some damn buzzer going off and I was too busy to figure out how to shut it up." Vario sinking, landing gear warning, sua airspace warnings, mylar peeling, all make too much the same sounds. John Cochrane. |
#149
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Stall warnings
On 9/8/11 9:16 AM, John Cochrane wrote:
Maybe the stall warning should actually measure the stall. A small hole (static sized) on the top skin of the wing, back half, would indicate a sharp drop in pressure when separation starts ahead of it, along with characteristc turbulence. Connect it to a pressure transducer, run wires down the wing to a plug that automatically makes contact on assembly, and you have a stall warning that measures exactly that -- stalls. It would account automatically for water ballast, spoilers, flaps, landing gear, rain, bugs, and all the other things that make airspeed or even angle of attack based approaches fail. It would be useful in a thermal -- you actually don't want to thermal at the edge of a stall, where separation is already starting. You want to thermal 1-2 knots more than that. So the ``stall warning'' going off would be useful feedback "you're thermaling inefficiently" as well as a last ditch attempt to wake up a distracted pilot in trouble. And, while I'm dreaming, it should have voice! The famous last words are always "there was some damn buzzer going off and I was too busy to figure out how to shut it up." Vario sinking, landing gear warning, sua airspace warnings, mylar peeling, all make too much the same sounds. John Cochrane. John That was kind of the basis of the DG-600/600M stall warning. However measuring at the wing roots won't account for things like spoiler effects. And even if automatic connection still needs to be checked at assembly, but definitely put the transducers in the wing--but they need to be accessible/serviceable especially for things like gooping up the holes with wax/polish or water etc. Designing this to be able to handle the glider being washed and know the holes/tubes are not full of water will be interesting. And folks who flew with the DG600 system... how well did it work? BTW who else notices the Duo Discus wing root rumbling when thermalling slow? Just on the edge of that feels really good to me when wanting to be really slow/tight in a thermal (when not low). +1 on the need for voice (and likely some ad-hoc standardization on this across devices). My (motor)glider has the potential to make sounds for vario lift/sink, spoiler open, slow speed (usually defeated), U/C up, SUA entry (mostly disabled), OZ entry (C302/303 usually disabled), engine temps, low fuel, etc... and adding PowerFLARM... far too many thingies making noises. Darryl |
#150
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Stall warnings
On Sep 8, 8:19*am, wrote:
On Sep 8, 9:32*am, Mike wrote: I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on. The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under stress. UH Too true Frank Whiteley |
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