Opinions on 1981 172P - First Airplane

I know everyone has an opinion... and I'd like to hear some of them!

I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
history and a current annual and IFR certification.

It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
history in the past.

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?

And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

In article ,
Jerry Napoliano wrote:
The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Almost certainly not. And the installed price of a 430 will be closer
to $10k.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

" Jerry Napoliano wrote in message
...

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?
And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=82361
Price is "okay", but..

1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)

And the biggie!!!

2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination of
the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?

With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED airplane
could well be more complex.

For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.

Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
aircraft?

Owning is great! Welcome aboard.

The comments about use profile are critical. If you will really be
traveling or doing IFR, a little more speed and power are nice. If not, the
172 can be perfect. I'm a buy it and keep it a long time kind of guy so
getting something that will serve 5 years out has been important (I'm on
#3). Others are fly it and sell it and upgrade - but that path suggests
buying low time, ready to go a/c. Like kitchens and bathrooms, you won't
get your investments back at resale, you want to use the stuff. So with
this kind of plane, you want to think you will still be flying it in 5+
years.

The Garmin will cost you $10k minimum. Plan on $15k or more ("since we are
opening up the panel, we might as well do x and y and z, don't you think?")

If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more likely,
you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over one
of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.

Good luck.


" Jerry Napoliano wrote in message
...
I know everyone has an opinion... and I'd like to hear some of them!

I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
history and a current annual and IFR certification.

It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
history in the past.

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?

And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

Tom -

I'm not a new PPL, but certainly not an ATP.. I'm around 400 hours.
I'm buying for personal flights, no business need at all.

I don't have an enormous budget, so I'm looking in the $50k - $60k
range, something reliable, clean and well maintained. Of course I
would prefer something faster, with 6 seats, but thats not realistic
right now.

My primary concern now is evaluating the cost of this airplane. It is
very clean, well maintained, just getting close to TBO. How that
effects its price is what I'm trying to determine.

Thanks for your help.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:00:07 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


" Jerry Napoliano wrote in message
.. .

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?
And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=82361
Price is "okay", but..

1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)

And the biggie!!!

2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination of
the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?

With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED airplane
could well be more complex.

For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.

Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
aircraft?

Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
at this point.

I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
very clean inside and out.

What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
price of the aircraft?

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:33:19 GMT, "Maule Driver"
wrote:

If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more likely,
you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over one
of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.

"Jerry Napoliano" wrote in message
...
Tom -

I'm not a new PPL, but certainly not an ATP.. I'm around 400 hours.
I'm buying for personal flights, no business need at all.

I don't have an enormous budget, so I'm looking in the $50k - $60k
range, something reliable, clean and well maintained. Of course I
would prefer something faster, with 6 seats, but thats not realistic
right now.

I'm sure you've heard (and will continue to hear) that you need to do a lot
of "homework" before hand. IAC, here's the biggest butt-kick you'll ever
hear: how much reserve ($$$) do you have for maintainance? With an airplane,
Murphy's Law, pertaining to maintenance is particularly acute. Aircraft are
much more susceptible to defered maintenance than just about any other
mechanical device than can hurt you.

What is the profile of your typical pleasure trip? 100NM? 300? 500? How many
passengers and how much baggage?

My primary concern now is evaluating the cost of this airplane. It is
very clean, well maintained, just getting close to TBO. How that
effects its price is what I'm trying to determine.

TBO is a funny measure. It's a recommend "life expectancy" established by
the manufacturer.

For example, if the cost of an overhaul is $20,000 and your TBO is 2000
hours, then you can deduct $10 an hour from the normal price. When I bought
mine, it was 60 hours to TBO, but could (and will) go much longer. The
inspection revealed "like new" compressions, no metal in the oil, top end in
excellent shape...

Here is a good article that explains a lot and dispells a lot of OWT's (Old
Wives Tales).
-------------------------------
April 14, 2004
The Savvy Aviator #4: Debunking TBO

Engine TBO (time between overhauls) seems to be one of the most
misunderstood concepts in aviation maintenance. There are lots of
TBO-related old wives tales that are widely believed by owners and mechanic
alike, and they can cost owners a great deal of money. Mike Busch endeavors
to clear up these misconceptions, and explain what TBO really means.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187037-1.html
-------------------------------------

As "Maule Driver" pointed out, don't be in a rush, and I'd add, don't be
fooled by cosmetics. You pointed out "well maintained" and that's a key if
you don't want someone elses problems and are willing to pay for it. This is
even more cogent in aircraft, I think, than in other endeavors (cars, homes,
spouses).

Remember, it's still a buyers market right now, so take your time and take a
lot of time to dig through all the lists. (I took nine months and checked
out over thirty aircraft before finding what I wanted (close to TBO so I
could do an engine upgrade) and a seller who knew what his airplane was
worth and took good care of it...and I'm not know for my patience.)


Thanks for your help.

Your welcome. The people in here are very knowlegeable and experienced (if
opinionated :~) )and they steered me away from a couple disasters. Don't be
afraid to ask questions, even seemingly silly ones. And remember, the final
decision is yours and you get to enjoy it on YOUR terms, or you have to bear
the burden.

Good luck!

Tom Six


On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:00:07 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


" Jerry Napoliano wrote in message
.. .

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?
And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=82361
Price is "okay", but..

1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)

And the biggie!!!

2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination
of
the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?

With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED
airplane
could well be more complex.

For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.

Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
aircraft?

"Jerry Napoliano" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
at this point.

What do you consider a "long" trip? Time or miles? Out west, a long trip can
easily be 500NM; back east 150nm can take hours with the holds, indirect
routing...

I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
very clean inside and out.

Why on-board? Just my own addled opinion, but a yoke mounted, handheld GPS
in a 172 should be adequate.

(See? Lots of tough questions!! :~)

I would say a long trip would be in the 300 - 500 nm range. I'm in
the east, and your point about 150nm is well taken.

With regard to exact configurations, that's really tough to say at
this point. Baggage, passengers, and other specifics haven't garnered
a lot of consideration. I may have a passenger or 2 on some of the
long trips, but I'm not banking on it. I'm not buying to use the
plane as a weekend hauler, just something that I can use for pleasure
or to take a family member or friend with me for company. I vacation
in VT a couple times a year, so I would be taking some baggage with
me, and perhaps one or two passengers, but thats about it.

I hope that helps with configuration!

As for on-board, I suppose I could get over that. I agree that
yoke-mount would be OK. There's an avionics shop nearby and I've seen
Garmin 430's for $3750 there, which didn't seem like a bank-breaker
for a panel mounted GPS/COM upgrade. Installation, I understand, is
not included... what that would cost has yet to be determined.
Anyone?

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:42:32 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


"Jerry Napoliano" wrote in message
.. .

Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
at this point.

What do you consider a "long" trip? Time or miles? Out west, a long trip can
easily be 500NM; back east 150nm can take hours with the holds, indirect
routing...

I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
very clean inside and out.

Why on-board? Just my own addled opinion, but a yoke mounted, handheld GPS
in a 172 should be adequate.

(See? Lots of tough questions!! :~)

"Jerry Napoliano" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
at this point.
C172 sounds nice.

I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
very clean inside and out.
My assumption was that this was one of the first or 2nd you've looked at.
There is a learning curve involved in buying and it's just nice to spend
some time learning on the cheap side of the curve.

Avionics. If it all works and you'd keep it, fine. If you are IFR cert'd
and will really use it, I'm a new school guy who would bite the bullet and
get a panel mount cert'd unit too. If you are going to use it to get IFR
cert'd, I would definitely want to get the panel mount. Why pass up all
that training in a setup you are not going to fly.

Double the purchase price for installation. Need a new head? Is there
room? If not, what goes or gets replaced? Have a backup vac? There's $10k
in there some where with that Garmin - anyone want to correct me?

What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
price of the aircraft?
I don't know. It could easily mean 2 - 5 years of flying is left. Could
mean it's done already. But it does mean you need a reserve and need to be
ready to do it when needed. If you've been researching 172s, the effect on
the price should be evident. The thing I would want to know is that the
plane has been flown regularly and recently. If it's been sitting for a
year or 2....



On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:33:19 GMT, "Maule Driver"
wrote:

If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more
likely,
you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over
one
of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.