Opinions on 1981 172P - First Airplane

In article , "
Jerry Napoliano writes:

I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
history and a current annual and IFR certification.

It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
history in the past.

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?

And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?


Price seems reasonable which is a SWAG at this distance.

First, don't spend more that about 80% of your budget on a plane. The first
couple of years will eat up the rest as you get it to your liking.

Second, an IFR (Garmin 430) GPS will cost about $10k installed(and it is well
worth it). Expect to get 50% of cost back on instrumentation (maybe a little
more on the 430). A hand held will get you GPS for $1k (but not IFR).

The engine life at 1700 hrs is very dependent on such things as oil
consumption, metal in the filter, oil analysis over the last few oil
changes(you want to see trends), time since overhaul, compression readings,
general smoothness etc.. It may last another 50 or 500, who knows?

An engine overhaul will take the plane out of service for some time. You will
be paying for a plane you don't have. A friend had his plane down for 7 months
(but that long is unusual). You'll get most of you cost back on an overhaul.

Finally, a airplane for most of us is a love afare so after all is said and
done, if the plane says "Hi Jerry, I love YOU" GO FOR IT! I did when I bought
my Archer 7 years ago and we are still in love. :-)

Chuck

"Jerry Napoliano" wrote in message
news
As for on-board, I suppose I could get over that. I agree that
yoke-mount would be OK. There's an avionics shop nearby and I've seen
Garmin 430's for $3750 there, which didn't seem like a bank-breaker
for a panel mounted GPS/COM upgrade. Installation, I understand, is
not included... what that would cost has yet to be determined.
Anyone?

That depends (IIUC) on if you want it IFR certified or not.

Just basic VFR installation will probably run you another $4K, but IFR will
run you about another, maybe, $2K-4K.

Jerry Napoliano wrote:


What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
price of the aircraft?


Spend $20 (or so) and run it through http://www.aeroprice.com

Dave

Jerry Napoliano wrote:
There's an avionics shop nearby and I've seen
Garmin 430's for $3750 there, which didn't seem like a bank-breaker
for a panel mounted GPS/COM upgrade. Installation, I understand, is
not included... what that would cost has yet to be determined.
Anyone?

You don't say you're looking for IFR certification, so that reduces your
installation cost. $8-10K is not unusual, I think, for a certified 430. IFR
certification lets you do approaches. In the enroute environment, there's not
benefit to the IFR cert.

Dave

Jerry,
I forgot to mention that buying in state in a private sale(not a broker)
sometimes does NOT have sales tax added. My purchase in Ohio had no sales tax.
This can be a big advantage. If a broker is involved, they may be able to
"step back" and charge the seller a fee and let the sale be person to person.

Chuck

I have to agree that the price is high given the engine hours on the plane.

If the plane were cherry, with a low time engine, autopilot, and a Garmin
430, it might bring about 70k. That would mean new or close to new paint
and interior, clean logs, a well known and reputable rebuilt engine and 100
to 250 hours on the engine and prop. Adding an AP and 430 costs much more
than you get back.

You can work backwards from there to get a lowball price, and then start
haggling.

At 1700 hours the engine is close to worthless, and there are lots of planes
like that around to choose from. The only hope for someone in your seller's
position to get a price like he is asking is that he and his plane are known
by the buyers. Otherwise, everything is assumed to be as bad as it can be
by any potential buyers.

If you really like the skyhawk, then it likely is not a bad plane for you
( the thing about buying an old skyhawk is that its like buying vanilla at
31 flavors ). Given your hours, you may want to look at other choices.
Tigers are more fun IMO, and a 182 is much more versatile (though more
expensive in everyway).




"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"
Jerry Napoliano writes:

I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
history and a current annual and IFR certification.

It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
history in the past.

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?

And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?


Price seems reasonable which is a SWAG at this distance.

First, don't spend more that about 80% of your budget on a plane. The
first
couple of years will eat up the rest as you get it to your liking.

Second, an IFR (Garmin 430) GPS will cost about $10k installed(and it is
well
worth it). Expect to get 50% of cost back on instrumentation (maybe a
little
more on the 430). A hand held will get you GPS for $1k (but not IFR).

The engine life at 1700 hrs is very dependent on such things as oil
consumption, metal in the filter, oil analysis over the last few oil
changes(you want to see trends), time since overhaul, compression
readings,
general smoothness etc.. It may last another 50 or 500, who knows?

An engine overhaul will take the plane out of service for some time. You
will
be paying for a plane you don't have. A friend had his plane down for 7
months
(but that long is unusual). You'll get most of you cost back on an
overhaul.

Finally, a airplane for most of us is a love afare so after all is said
and
done, if the plane says "Hi Jerry, I love YOU" GO FOR IT! I did when I
bought
my Archer 7 years ago and we are still in love. :-)

Chuck

I forget which year is which, but I would bet that $10 per hour is not far
off the mark. The thing is that the first 100 hours cost nothing (they
provide evidence the engine is good, which is worth $1000) and the last
couple hundred are worth nothing (given the chances of it breaking down, and
not really knowing the way its been treated).

Your rebuild/replacement options run from 15k on the low end, to 28k on the
high end, with most folks getting it done for about 18 to 20k after they put
in some other "while your at its".

Also, you might want more wing loading if IFR in your area means turbulence
and not just obscuration.


"Jerry Napoliano" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
at this point.

I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
very clean inside and out.

What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
price of the aircraft?

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:33:19 GMT, "Maule Driver"
wrote:

If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more
likely,
you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over
one
of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.