Attracting the kids

On Aug 15, 3:00 pm, Jim Beckman wrote:
Another consideration - does your particular club exist
to provide everything for everybody? Or does it, more
like my own, provide the cheapest entry into soaring,
including cross-country trips, and then leave it to
the individuals to move themselves into higher performance
gliders? The second approach is a lot cheaper than
the first.

I see this point of view lot - that a club is either practically a
commercial operation where everything is on a plate, OR everybody has
to do everything themselves and only the most determined need apply. I
say: there is a middle way, and it's one a lot clubs do in fact take.
You charge a *moderate* amount of money for membership and flying, and
then use that money wisely. You might get one or two GRP two-seaters,
which as Bill says are a world away from old 2-33s. You might employ a
full-time instructor or two and a tug-pilot in the week, so people are
guaranteed instruction if they come to the airfield during the week,
and perhaps you could run courses (and charge a nice premium for
them). You might get a Discus or similar to give people who are
progressing something to aim for to use, and then enjoy flying when
they get there before buying their own ship. You might, again as Bill
says, get a winch and introduce your local area to a cheaper and
downright more fun way to get airborne.


Dan

On 15 Aug, 15:00, Jim Beckman wrote:

And are those honestly the type you want to entice
into gliding? Or are they inclined to get as much
from a club as they can, and contribute as little as
possible?

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I could name clubs in
the UK which are principally organisations for flying with some
communal activity and others which are mainly social clubs which do a
bit of flying on the side. There's room for both.

Ian

On Aug 15, 8:13 pm, Tom Gardner wrote:
The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
and potential
members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
solving
that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.

Aston Down. At first I thought they were mad, as they charge quite
steep fees, but then thought about it some more and read about
Lasham's experiences with the DG1000s, so wrote

These PW6s look quite good value and make far more sense than the PW5
ever did. They're much cheaper than anything else in their class and
they make a good impression - a good, strong, modern ship. It might
take 10 years for a club to pay for one, but think of the benefits -
impresses visitors (=more members), can be used for XC training (=more
membership progression), generally a damn sight nicer to fly than a
tired old glider...

and then

I personally believe modern GRP trainers may well be worth it.
Membership costs seem to be surprisingly inelastic, and I suspect many
potential members would rather payer somewhat higher fees in return
for *far* better gliders.

On Tuesday. That said, I have a very soft spot for K13s and one in our
club was recently restored, and is now actually quite a smart ship.
People seem to like the bright colors it's painted in, and they have a
good view from the large one-piece canopy. K13s also typically enjoy
lower insurance and maintenance costs, as metal, wood and fabric is
cheaper to repair than GRP. Ergo:

That said I think
the K13 is the perfect trainer and if I ran a club with a fleet of
those, I'd just repaint them and keep them, then add a K21 or G103 for
XC training (consider that a mid-performance glider may be preferable
for early XC training, as it's unlikely that your new early XC pilots
will have access to gliders with any better performance!).


Dan

On Aug 15, 10:26 pm, Dan G wrote:
On Aug 15, 8:13 pm, Tom Gardner wrote:

The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
and potential
members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
solving
that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.

Aston Down.

Just so, but the actual club is, of course, only of passing
relevance in this thread.

At first I thought they were mad, as they charge quite
steep fees, but then thought about it some more and read about
Lasham's experiences with the DG1000s

I'll leave that judgement to history and to those that
are more experienced than I am

All I'll say is that flying the Lasham DG1000 on my second
day (flights 5-7 was delightful, particularly the aerotow to
1000' above the Cu cloudbase followed by surfing the suds.
OTOH, acting as ballast in a K13 for an impromptu 60 min
"joyride" on flight 4 was also eye-opening.

Both K13s and DGxxxs are delightful; it is what you do
with them that creates the indelible memories. Plus, of
course, the flavour of the club and its members.

But, to return to the thread; as I intimated, I suspect the
rollercoaster of a winch launch is a better way of getting
kids hooked than a rather sedate aerotow.

tom gardner

There is no blanket fix, nor club style that suits all.
I advocate the new, shiny style of glider for all operations because that is what appeals to me.
I am mid 40s and have been gliding for 20 years, my own club is large and fairly all-encompassing in its approach to new members.
We have a duo, Blanik and 3 IS-28s for training/ checks and split the combination between sites.
The Lark is a much better proposition for attracting visitors than the Blanik, the duo puts them both to shame but seldom gets a run for new pilots or AEFs due to costs mentioned in other posts. I personally prefer to fly a Blanik over a club lark ( I am told the private ones are much nicer) however if someone told me they had turned all of them into scrap-metal for the cost of the aluminium I would hardly lose sleep.

All of the above aircraft are a vast improvement over a 2-33, but dont confuse my arguments with my dislike for the 2-33 OR its ilk. There is nothing wrong with old Vauxhalls or Buicks either, you just cant sell them to kids.

My argument (check some of my previos posts on this) is for CHANGE, this in itself is uncomfortable for many people. Gliding is in decline yet we continue with what we do. Thats crazy!
People, we have to change, embrace it. For some folks any change is a bitter pill, but please, look further than what suits your own needs, at your own location.

I believe part of that change is for shiny ships, embracing GP NZ style coverage of events and fast, glitzy promo ads such as are found made by the juniors in Australia and Britian. Search for loch-smoker on you-tube - THAT is an enticing video for potential young pilots. Compare it to the recent SSA vid. - good work but not for me.


Along with Bill Daniels I endorse more world-wide winching.
If you havent gone up a wire this will be hard to understand, it is a blast! Cheap and easy, the only way to teach gliding in my opinion. I have never met a person who didnt get hooked after a winch launch. $7 space shuttle imitation.

I do, however, understand that winching is the current most dangerous aspect of worldwide gliding, with some 50% of deaths attributed to winch-related accidents. (this figure is not mine, the statement comes from a world champion and I am just using it - I assume it is a correct figure). Better winches, technology in rope, more training, more experience may improve this figure.
More aerotowing will only see us broke. Sure there is a place for it, but not outside competition, early starting cross-country launches and retreives, aero-towing must be a second option to getting us into the sky. Just too damned expensive, noisy and in-efficient.

Ultimately, self launching gliders may be the only viable option to us, lets hope I am still doing a sport that is recognised as mainstream at that time everyone is self-launching. Because unless we change our ways, my generation of kids may be the worlds last glider pilots.

Are we understanding that fully? 1, maybe 2 generations to go, then no more gliding. Period.

The less voices we have, the less wallets buy the gliders, the less airspace we get, the less airfeilds remain, the more newbies fear the unknown, no-one fixes pawnees for tugs anymore nor builds new styles with a hook, - a flat spin developes into a spiral to our sad end.

Now before some of the old gin-swillers out there completely cover their white moustaches in spittle as they read this, scoffing, please get it into your heads that change will NOT mean you are NOT doing the odd flight at the field every year, and 20 more even longer, faster flights at the bar in your clubs all over the world.
AS one of you, in the future, I just want some kids to help pay for the priveledge of listening.

bagger

diving for cover

I suspect that what hooked her was the winch launch. The same thing
happened to me while visiting Germany. Glider pilots who have never
experienced a winch launch have no idea how much fun the launch itself is.
Pulling 2 Gs and gaining 1,000 ft in 40 seconds is how you get kids'
attention. The fact that it is MUCH cheaper, makes it possible for them to
come back on a regular basis.

Mike Schumann

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 15, 3:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Let me get this strait, youth is very underrepresented and pilot numbers
are
crashing globally and you want to be choosy? Any kid that wants to fly
gliders needs to be encouraged as much as possible, bling or no bling.

Spot on.

Kids, even more than adults, will know the difference between a 2-33 and
anything else. They will want to impress their friends that they are
flying
a 'cool' glider. 2-33's are VERY uncool.

One point of reference.

My daughter's first experience was an aerotow in a DG500 on a
cloudless
windless November morning. She enjoyed it.

That afternoon we went to the neighbouring club (only 10 km away
just to
see what that was like. To our pleasant surprise (no bookings, arrived
at 3pm)
they winched her up in a K13. That experience hooked her.

Last weekend she told me she rather likes the K13s because she can
see
their innards - there's no "hidden magic".

The coolness is that she is flying an aircraft; some classmates
still have difficulty believing it! Her friends wouldn't know (or
care
about) the difference between a DG1000 and a T21.


Another point of reference.

The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
and potential
members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
solving
that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.

Make of that what you will.


The runway is 1500m, the record winch launch is 2800', a K13 gets
1500'
in still air and 2000' with a "decent" headwind. Crosswinds reduce the
launch
height of course, but 1500' is still normal.

tom gardner




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Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Don't know how life is in Germany now since I haven't
lived there since 1986 :-(, but back then, not only
did the kids in the club have fun flying and getting
launched by the winch, but they also got to operate
The Lepo! I think you had to be 18 years old to get
a drivers license, so the folks who wanted to drive
but were too young, would jump at the chance to drive
The Lepo. We never lacked volunteer Lepo drivers.

Okay, what is 'The Lepo?' :-)

Even though I had my license, I enjoyed driving The
Lepo, too. Our Lepos were an Opel of some type (of
course) plus a Ford Taunus.

Now, based at a public airport with a 5,000 foot paved
runway and about 400 feet of grass overrun on one end
and maybe 100 feet of grass overrun at the other end,
I just wonder how we could get a winch and how we could
convince the airport management to allow us to use
it. And where would we get a 'proper Lepo?' :-)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


At 00:54 16 August 2007, Mike Schumann wrote:
I suspect that what hooked her was the winch launch.
The same thing
happened to me while visiting Germany. Glider pilots
who have never
experienced a winch launch have no idea how much fun
the launch itself is.
Pulling 2 Gs and gaining 1,000 ft in 40 seconds is
how you get kids'
attention. The fact that it is MUCH cheaper, makes
it possible for them to
come back on a regular basis.

Mike Schumann

Step One: don't yell at them, or their parents, at contests

On Aug 15, 7:13 pm, Ray Lovinggood
wrote:
Don't know how life is in Germany now since I haven't
lived there since 1986 :-(, but back then, not only
did the kids in the club have fun flying and getting
launched by the winch, but they also got to operate
The Lepo! I think you had to be 18 years old to get
a drivers license, so the folks who wanted to drive
but were too young, would jump at the chance to drive
The Lepo. We never lacked volunteer Lepo drivers.

Okay, what is 'The Lepo?' :-)

Even though I had my license, I enjoyed driving The
Lepo, too. Our Lepos were an Opel of some type (of
course) plus a Ford Taunus.

Now, based at a public airport with a 5,000 foot paved
runway and about 400 feet of grass overrun on one end
and maybe 100 feet of grass overrun at the other end,
I just wonder how we could get a winch and how we could
convince the airport management to allow us to use
it. And where would we get a 'proper Lepo?' :-)

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

KHRJ reports an average of 84 aircraft movements a day as of 2005.
Any higher or lower since then? Means communication between pilots
and winching ops.

Gliders land adjacent to paved runway in grass area. Is that on the
west or east side? Is that true at both ends? 60 power aircraft
based there? Is that a golf course
to the east? Some slope off runway is mentioned.

Lights standing or recessed? How much room between the pavement and
lights?

Honestly, it looks like a great place for winching. What you need is
a demo day.

Frank Whiteley

On Aug 16, 1:00 am, bagmaker
wrote:
All of the above aircraft are a vast improvement over a 2-33, but dont
confuse my arguments with my dislike for the 2-33 OR its ilk. There is
nothing wrong with old Vauxhalls or Buicks either, you just cant sell
them to kids.

You make many good and useful points, but I'd like to
partially disagree with that statement. (BTW being
right-pondian, I don't know a 2-33's characteristics

Selling an old glider isn't likely to work. Selling what
*they* are allowed to *do* in the glider (e.g. a K13)
is likely to be successful. Sell their ruggedness so
that an early-stage pre-solo trainee "is let loose" to
do landings, spins, etc on their own.


tom gardner