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  #21  
Old January 19th 12, 12:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Hagbard Celine
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Manual

What does "practically speaking" or for that matter realism have to do
with anything? We're talking about aviation regulations here!

I keep a the hard copy of my flight manual on board when I'm flying
but I too have tried to imagine how it might be of use in a single
seat glider. Damn, I'm in a spin! How do I recover from it again?
*rustle rustle rustle* Ah! Here it is: "Full opposite rudder
and"...CRASH!!!

I've been helping a friend import a glider and the geniuses
responsible for the type certificate decided that the minimum
equipment they required in it have to be a SPECIFIC MAKE AND MODEL of
ASI, altimeter and seatbelt! The Canadian TCDS for the Slingsby
Kestrel includes "a back type parachute" period. I'm glad my 15's TCDS
just says "an airspeed indicator, an altimeter calibrated in feet, a
magnetic direction indicator, seatbelts including shoulder straps and
a parachute or a back cushion if no parachute is worn" and leaves it
up to the owner's discretion as to what equipment is installed in
order to fulfill those requirements.

On Jan 18, 1:07*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:



On Jan 18, 11:26 am, *wrote:


What is the definition of an AFM? *Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? *And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?


Curious minds want to know!


Kirk
66


AFM = Approved Flight Manual. * The reason they want the original AFM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. *A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. *AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.


Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?

Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
minutes to find.

Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz


  #22  
Old January 19th 12, 02:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roger Fowler[_2_]
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Posts: 22
Default Manual

Going back to the original question, if you have an LS-6C that is
certificated in the standard category and the Flight Manual says it must be
in the aircraft, then you need a manual you can read in the aircraft.

Most LS-6's are experimental and you don't need a flight manual unless the
Operating Limitations say you need it. I have never seen that, though.

Roger

At 23:18 18 January 2012, Hagbard Celine wrote:
What does "practically speaking" or for that matter realism have to do
with anything? We're talking about aviation regulations here!

I keep a the hard copy of my flight manual on board when I'm flying
but I too have tried to imagine how it might be of use in a single
seat glider. Damn, I'm in a spin! How do I recover from it again?
*rustle rustle rustle* Ah! Here it is: "Full opposite rudder
and"...CRASH!!!

I've been helping a friend import a glider and the geniuses
responsible for the type certificate decided that the minimum
equipment they required in it have to be a SPECIFIC MAKE AND MODEL of
ASI, altimeter and seatbelt! The Canadian TCDS for the Slingsby
Kestrel includes "a back type parachute" period. I'm glad my 15's TCDS
just says "an airspeed indicator, an altimeter calibrated in feet, a
magnetic direction indicator, seatbelts including shoulder straps and
a parachute or a back cushion if no parachute is worn" and leaves it
up to the owner's discretion as to what equipment is installed in
order to fulfill those requirements.

On Jan 18, 1:07=A0pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Bill D wrote:



On Jan 18, 11:26 am, "kirk.stant" =A0wrote:


What is the definition of an AFM? =A0Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the

same
as the original AFM? =A0And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?


Curious minds want to know!


Kirk
66


AFM =3D Approved Flight Manual. =A0 The reason they want the original

A=
FM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. =A0A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. =A0AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.


Is there a requirement that the pilot be able read the manual while
flying, or only that it be carried in the aircraft?

Legal requirements aside, I'm trying to picture myself needing to know
something from the manual while flying, fishing out the manual from
wherever, and then finding that nugget of information I'm after. That's
something I can barely do the ground, because if I don't know it from
memory, it's going to buried somewhere that might take me 5 or 10
minutes to find.

Practically speaking, in thousands of hours flying gliders, I've never
wished I'd had the manual in the glider while I was flying, nor was
there ever a situation where it would have helped to have it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz




  #23  
Old January 19th 12, 08:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ralph Jones[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Manual

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:44:06 -0700, "Dan Marotta"
wrote:

I don't think I ever carried the manual in my LS-6, but I know that it would
easily slip behind the seat. Seriously, if you need to be reading the
manual in flight, you shouldn't be flying...


I can just see the NTSB report: "Cause of accident: pages 49 & 50 of
the POH stuck together"...

rj
  #24  
Old January 19th 12, 09:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 746
Default Manual

On Jan 18, 6:58*pm, Roger Fowler wrote:
Going back to the original question, if you have an LS-6C that is
certificated in the standard category and the Flight Manual says it must be
in the aircraft, then you need a manual you can read in the aircraft.

Most LS-6's are experimental and you don't need a flight manual unless the
Operating Limitations say you need it. *I have never seen that, though.

Roger


My pre-1992 operations letter says, "must be operated in accordance
with manual". The manual says, "must be kept in glider". There may
be exceptions but every Experimental - Exhibition & Racing ops letter
I've read has similar wording.

Keeping the manual in the glider isn't entirely about reading it in
flight - even if that were possible. It's about keeping an important
(and current) document located with the glider so it can be easily be
found for reference should the need arise. Long experience says if a
manual is kept separately, you can't find it when you need it.
  #25  
Old August 7th 12, 12:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Manual

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:44:18 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 18, 10:27*am, Dave wrote:

On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D wrote:




















On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:




On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:




You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if


the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.




XF




That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the


manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in


the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the


minimum placards.




I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having


the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does


anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?




--


Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to


email me)


- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what


you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz




Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.


AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on


board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the


glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated


in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)




A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear


plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.


The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -




- Show quoted text -




14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? *Anyway,


it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a


glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or


Rotorcraft Flight Manual? *My type certified glider has an approved


"Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b


2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which


an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of


this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current


approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual


material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does


that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,


or any combination I choose?




As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. *Para 7 says


"Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply


not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any


language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing he




http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...er/8620_2A.pdf




-Dave (not a lawyer)




Yes, 91.9 not 91.309.



91.9 requires the AFM to be on board and that the aircraft be operated

in accordance with it.



8620.21a is referring to "mandatory" service bulletins not being

enforceable.


91.9 refers to an "Airplane" & "Rotorcraft". A Sailplane is neither as it is an "Aircraft". An Aircraft does not have an engine. That is the big difference. 91.9 does not apply to an Aircraft.
  #26  
Old August 7th 12, 01:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default Manual

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:33:25 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
"Yes. The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector. AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on board. An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309) A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider. The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board."

The FAA term AFM stands for Airplane Flight Manual to distinguish it from the FAA term Rotorcraft Flight Manual. Ref 14 CFR 1.2 Definitions. - "AFM means airplane flight manual".

If you are operating an airplane you may need to carry an AFM but, under FAA definitions, a glider is not an airplane. All the limitations of an FAA experimental certificate are defined in the operating limitations and no reference is typically made to any JAR requirement. If the operating limitation neither require, nor refer to, a flight manual then none is required.

14 CFR 91.309 relates to towing and seems to be unrelated to this topic.

The requirements for an AFM are defined in 14 CFR 23.1581 General - but part 23 does not define requirement or regulations for gliders.

I confirmed the non-applicability of an AFM to my experimental glider with AOPA legal services just last week as part of my preparation for a FSDO inspection of my glider.

No harm in carrying one though, I do carry mine. However, carrying it is very different from asseting that there is an FAA requirement to either carry it or comply with it.

Andy
 




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