IFR logging question - is this legal?

Peter wrote:
Hi All,

This is for an N-reg aircraft.

Aircraft: a standard piston single.

P1 seat: a pilot legal to be PIC under VFR.

P2 seat: a pilot legal to be PIC under IFR (but no CFI/CFII rating).

No money changes hands.

Irrelevant to logging time


Let's say one does an IFR flight.

Obviously the one in the P2 seat has to be PIC, to keep it legal.

Can the P1 pilot log anything at all and, if so, what can he log?

I presume P1 is sole manipulator of the controls


Now, is the situation any different if the aircraft is owned by the P2
person and rented to the P1 person?

I know about the 100-hr check stuff; 91.409: "...no person may operate
an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire,
and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft
which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of
time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour
inspection...

Irrelevant to logging time


and this suggests that a 100hr check is NOT required (nobody being
carried for hire, and nobody doing instructing).

correct


Thank you for any comments.

Can the P1 also log it? I'd hope so!

Only if P1 is sole manipulator of the controls, rated for the category
and class of airplane, and using a view limiting device (91.109) that
would require a second crew member. That second crew member of course
would need to act as PIC. Without a view limiting device, two pilots
are not necessary. P1 would be acting as an organic autopilot. The
regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for
the purposes of logging time.

Brad wrote:
The
regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for
the purposes of logging time.

The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC.

-Robert, CFII

In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:

Brad wrote:
The
regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for
the purposes of logging time.

The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC.

Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated,
in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be
instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan).

-- Dane

Dane Spearing wrote:
In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:
Brad wrote:
The
regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for
the purposes of logging time.
The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC.

Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated,
in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be
instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan).


Safety pilots do not exist in IMC. Safety pilots are needed only for
simulated IFR. Simulated IFR (along with some part 135/121 os) are the
rules under which "more than one pilot is required." Flying IFR in
actual only requires one pilot.

Dane Spearing wrote:
Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated,
in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be
instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan).

-- Dane

No, once the flight is in IMC there is no need for a safety pilot and
therefor the flight does not need 2 pilots.

-Robert, CFII

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Brad wrote:

The
regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for
the purposes of logging time.


The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC.

-Robert, CFII


IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most
certainly can.. because he IS the PIC.

In the scenario listed above, the pilot flying (P1) is described as
legal for VFR flight.. and P2 is listed for legal for IFR flight.. so
for this IFR flight, only P2 can BE the pilot in command.

Both can log, however.

P1 logs PIC by virtue of being sole manipulator. P2 logs PIC by virtue
of BEING the PIC on the IFR flight plan, because only P2 can BE the PIC
under an IFR clearance under the conditions specified by the original
poster.

Dave

Dave S wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:
IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most
certainly can.. because he IS the PIC.

There is no such provision under 61.51(e). You do not get to log PIC
just because you are Pilot In Command.

-Robert, CFII

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Dave S wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:
IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most
certainly can.. because he IS the PIC.


There is no such provision under 61.51(e). You do not get to log PIC
just because you are Pilot In Command.

-Robert, CFII


But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.

Dave

Dave S wrote:
But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.

Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing
in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs
do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood
in VMC.

-Robert, CFII

Dave S wrote:
But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.

The operation you decribed does not require more than one pilot by
regulation. Flying under the hood in VMC requires more than one pilot
by regulation. Once you don't need the hood, you don't need more than
one pilot.

61.51(e)(1)
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of
an^M
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type^M
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight
is^M
conducted.^M


-Robert, CFII