Options

I thought finish "gates" moved to a line or cylinder at altitude away from
the airport.. like the start gates did with the advent of GPS recordings

BT

wrote in message
oups.com...
We successfully fly our sailplanes by keeping our options open, don't
we? We keep an extra 300 feet in the pattern, just in case we hit a
bunch of sink, don't we? On the ridge we keep our speed up and always
have an escape route, don't we?

Why then, do we continue to use a finish gate that reduces our options
to just one? When we finish at 50 feet we must immediately exchange our
speed for altitude and hope there isn't somebody above us as we make a
beautiful climbing turn to down-wind. What if we suddenly see someone
else in the pattern? What if we see 3 other ships in the pattern? Been
there, done that! I abandoned any thought of putting it on the runway
and lined up on the taxiway, just to see one of the other ships make
the same decision and cut inside me. We rolled to a stop, not 15 feet
apart.

Over the years I have paid my competitive dues by volunteering to run
contests. I have been the Competition Director in 3 Nationals and a
Regionals in the last 30 years. I will not subject myself, the pilots
or the organization to the liability involved in using a finish gate
that I consider outmoded, unnecessary and unsafe. We have an option,
don't we?

JJ Sinclair

BTIZ wrote:
I thought finish "gates" moved to a line or cylinder at altitude away from
the airport.. like the start gates did with the advent of GPS recordings

The current SSA regional/national rules leave the contest director with
the option of using either a finish cylinder with a specified minimum
finish height (usually 500 to 1000 ft), or a finish gate with a 50 ft
minimum height. When using a finish gate, it needs to be adjacent to the
runway, or the worm burners won't be able to make it home...

Marc

I was just doing some polar math.

Let's say I'm on a Mc = 0 final glide in my ASW-27B.
I cross the finish cylinder boundary at 500' and 60
knots (best L/D dry). I'm now 1 sm from the airport
center. I fly at best L/D and reach the airfield with
about 380' of altitude. This is about the same altitude
I'd have if I'd crossed a finish gate at 100 knots
and 50 feet then pulled up.

If on the other hand I cross the cylinder at 150 knots
and 500' I will reach the airfield at 50', still at
150 knots. After my pullup I will have something more
than 900'. I know which scenario I prefer.

It's all about total energy. If you think total energy
is more about 500' of altitude than an extra 90 knots
of airspeed I suggest you do the math.

My suggestion is to keep these issues the domain of
the CD and contest organizers. They understand best
the local airport and traffic patterns and the nature
of the local conditions. Low total energy finishes
should be (and are) subject to penalty at the CD's
discretion. It's easy enough to judge off of GPS logs
now.

9B

At 00:00 12 March 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote:
First, when do you pull in a cylinder finish?

How about when it's clear? There's no hurry, unlike
being 50 feet off
the ground.

When the
gps goes beep? How do I know mine will go beep in
sequence with yours?
What if I delay my pull?

I'm guessing you'd continue in the direction you are
headed. Since you
are 500' in the air, this shouldn't cause any heartburn.

What risk am I taking? What are the speed
differentials among the gliders in the gaggle? With
a finish line, high
and low energy aircraft separate naturally.

You'll have to explain how this happens. I've seen
high and low speed
gliders close together at finish lines, and if the
high speed glider is
lower than the others, watch out! He's eager to climb
up to pattern
height and isn't going to coast along for another 1000'
or so.

Will the pilot above and
behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying
at best L/D in
an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner?

He's safe - he'll separate from you when he pulls up,
and you aren't
going to pull up. That's a good situation. It seems
unlikely he won't
see you ahead of him as he approaches. I've seen the
same situation
finish gates, anyway.

And where is the
cylinder? Why, it's right there on my instrument panel!
Next to the
altimeter, my other sore distraction.

I think if you can keep track of the other gliders
zooming into a finish
line from various altitudes and angles, you'd be able
to manage a finish
cylinder. At least, as you approach the cylinder, the
gliders that will
enter the cylinder near you are all going the same
direction you are,
which is often not true at a finish line.

When was the last time we wanted to ban gaggles for
safety reasons?

I think most of us have wanted to elimanate *large*
gaggles, but no one
has figured out a good way to do it.

My theory is that ignorance shows more profoundly
low and fast than
high and slow.

If by ignorance, you mean 'poor judgement', I agree
with you, and I
think this is the theory behind the finish cylinders,
isn't it?



--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Andy Blackburn wrote:
Let's say I'm on a Mc = 0 final glide in my ASW-27B.
I cross the finish cylinder boundary at 500' and 60
knots (best L/D dry). I'm now 1 sm from the airport
center. I fly at best L/D and reach the airfield with
about 380' of altitude. This is about the same altitude
I'd have if I'd crossed a finish gate at 100 knots
and 50 feet then pulled up.

If on the other hand I cross the cylinder at 150 knots
and 500' I will reach the airfield at 50', still at
150 knots. After my pullup I will have something more
than 900'. I know which scenario I prefer.

What, exactly, is your point? This makes no sense...

Marc

Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a
very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the
mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer. Of
course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude!

It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super
weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish!

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Kilo Charlie wrote:
Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a
very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the
mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer. Of
course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude!

Hmm, I pegged him for a lawyer or politician, the numbers may have some
basis in reality (assuming you fly in a vacuum), but the logic is, uh,
"interesting".

It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super
weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish!

Agreed...

Marc

Kilo Charlie wrote:
Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a
very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the
mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer. Of
course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude!

Hmm, I pegged him for a lawyer or politician, the numbers may have some
basis in reality (assuming you fly in a vacuum), but the logic is, uh,
"interesting".

It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super
weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish!

Agreed...

Marc

well... as most finishes would be at worm burner speeds even for the
cylinder, not bet L/D speed... at least you would start the "zoom" from
100knts and 500ft higher? even if 1/2 mile from the runway instead of 10 ft
over it.

flying the cylinder at best L/d would be conservative if you were going to
barely make it home.. I would think

BT

"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message
news:m6uYd.43315$FM3.18415@fed1read02...
Don't argue with 9B re the logic of the math issue....trust me....he's a
very bright guy and never leaves his calculator! He is offering the
mathematical explanation of why cylinder finishes may not be any safer.
Of course it supports my point so I'm thinkin' he's a rad dude!

It's been a good discussion guys.....hope that all of you have a super
weekend of soaring whatever height you choose to finish!

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

I never said it was for everyone....But those who wish to do it shouldnt be
stopped by those who dont.

Nick.

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...


I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic
manouver.


Ahhh, hmmm....let's see if I understand this concept...

Unsynchronized group aerobatics done at low level and
high speed...in the landing pattern of an open airport....by
fatigued pilots.

Thanks but no thanks.

You are missing the point... it is fun!!

From what statistics does your 'relatively few pilots' line come from? Are
we talking about contest pilots? Regular weekend flyers? I would say that
80% of the contest pilots I know love to do it. This is not to say that they
deliberatly climb higher than necessary to facilitate it, but there are
occasions when you get 10kt climbs when you already have final glide. In
this case it is worthwhile to pull up so you can come back at a faster
speed.

Nick.

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. com...
Kilo Charlie wrote:
Tom Knauff has done a good job of disproving the idea that the most
dangerous part of flying is the drive to the field. I hope that this
doesn't insult you guys trying to argue the what you feel is the safety
point. Your hearts are in the right place.

==
There are relatively few pilots who believe others are impressed by a low
altitude pass. (Sort of like teenage burning rubber, thinking it impresses
others.) In fact, the pilot usually needs to gain extra altitude in the
final thermal in order to have the necessary energy, wasting precious
time. The better pilot only climbs to the altitude necessary and then
flies the correct speed-to-fly all the way home, perhaps increasing the
airspeed slightly to use up the safety margin altitude, in the final
miles.

Really good pilots don't need to show off. They demonstrate their skills
on the score sheet.
==

The above is a quote from Tom Knauff's last email newsletter, hopefully he
won't mind my posting it here. I just like to race and get home in one
piece. I want to minimize the chances of screwing up, or being subject to
someone elses screw up, after I finish. Maybe you'll understand,
someday...

regards,
Marc