Approach to an LOM/IAF with PT (not vectors to final)

The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

I'm kind of confused.
When or how did he actually clear you for the approach?

If he cleared you for the appoach and also cleared you direct NEPCO, then
you just shoot the approach straight in on the SDF once established on the
localizer. Since you were approaching from the south, no procedure turn is
necessary.

If he only cleared you to NEPCO, but didn't clear you for the approach, then
you should expect further clearance or enter the hold.

I don't think he would have given you a frequency change if he expected you
to do the full approach including the procedure turn, I'd only expect to get
the hand off after I was inbound crossing the IAF.

--
Jim Burns III

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"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

Jim wrote:

I'm kind of confused.
When or how did he actually clear you for the approach?

He cleared me for the approach about 10 miles out and then approved a
freq change. The paproach does not say "NO PT", so is it legit to
assume that I do not need to do one?


If he cleared you for the appoach and also cleared you direct NEPCO, then
you just shoot the approach straight in on the SDF once established on the
localizer. Since you were approaching from the south, no procedure turn is
necessary.

It does not say that in the approach plate.


If he only cleared you to NEPCO, but didn't clear you for the approach, then
you should expect further clearance or enter the hold.

I don't think he would have given you a frequency change if he expected you
to do the full approach including the procedure turn, I'd only expect to get
the hand off after I was inbound crossing the IAF.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote
1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

Technically yes, you are required to do this. If there's no RADAR,
who is going to know if you do or not?

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

Not really. Your cleared route is direct NEPCO, so that's what you're
expected to do.

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.

Right. Or simply cancel IFR.

What if you can not raise ATC on the radio?

Then you have a comm failure in VFR conditions, right? So continue
under VFR and land as soon as practicable as per 91.185(b).

Yes, I know I'm stretching the meaning of the reg, but realistically
that's what makes sense.

Michael

The exeption to the rule when NoPT is absent from the chart is when you are
cleared straight in either via radar vectors or via a clearance, otherwise
you are expected to do the PT when you arrive over the fix that begins the
procedure turn. Because you were given a radio hand off to the local
frequency, I would have taken that to mean you were cleared straight in via
your clearance to NEPCO, but when in doubt ask, because as you say, you were
probably below radar coverage. I would have responded with something like
"N1234 cleared direct NEPCO, straight in SDF 2, frequency change approved"
That's usually what I do when comeing from the north into STE on the GPS 21
and I usually get a "roger" or "read back correct". If he wants you to do
the full procedure turn that would give him a chance to make his clearance
clearer
--
Jim Burns III

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"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...


Jim wrote:

I'm kind of confused.
When or how did he actually clear you for the approach?

He cleared me for the approach about 10 miles out and then approved a
freq change. The paproach does not say "NO PT", so is it legit to
assume that I do not need to do one?


If he cleared you for the appoach and also cleared you direct NEPCO,
then
you just shoot the approach straight in on the SDF once established on
the
localizer. Since you were approaching from the south, no procedure turn
is
necessary.

It does not say that in the approach plate.


If he only cleared you to NEPCO, but didn't clear you for the approach,
then
you should expect further clearance or enter the hold.

I don't think he would have given you a frequency change if he expected
you
to do the full approach including the procedure turn, I'd only expect to
get
the hand off after I was inbound crossing the IAF.

Another option. You could use the hold for a course reversal. "Roger
Minneapolis, cleared for the SDF 2, direct NEPCO, we'd like to do a lap in
the hold rather than the procedure turn." This would be a little quicker
because the holding fix is NEPCO. Right turn outbound, right turn inbound,
straight in and land.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

Jim, I like your idea on reading back for a straight-in. The thing
about doing a turn around the hold is that it seems to me to defeat the
whole purpose for the PT. As I understand it, the approaches have you
do this so that you are well-established on the SDF/ILS *before* you get
to the LOM. In this case, the PT or hold serves to destablize your
track and decrease safety. At least, that is how I see it.

-Sami

Jim wrote:

Another option. You could use the hold for a course reversal. "Roger
Minneapolis, cleared for the SDF 2, direct NEPCO, we'd like to do a lap in
the hold rather than the procedure turn." This would be a little quicker
because the holding fix is NEPCO. Right turn outbound, right turn inbound,
straight in and land.

The hold is for the missed approach. If the designer of the approach had
intended to use the hold as a course reversal method, he/she would have
designed it that way. If you have not been advised that you are being
vectored for the approach, substituting a lap in the hold for a procedure
turn doesn't make it any more legal than omitting the PT altogether.
Besides, ATC can't rewrite the approach procedure, especially if they can't
see you.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Another option. You could use the hold for a course reversal. "Roger
Minneapolis, cleared for the SDF 2, direct NEPCO, we'd like to do a lap in
the hold rather than the procedure turn." This would be a little quicker
because the holding fix is NEPCO. Right turn outbound, right turn
inbound,
straight in and land.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

Yep, if you heard anything along the lines of "Vectors for the approach" in
your clearance, this whole discussion is moot.


1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

According to the rules, yes, and technically ATC expects you to follow the
rules. More than likely, however, your controller expected you to continue
inbound without flying the PT. You could clarify the situation by
indicating that upon reaching the LOM you would be making a right turn to
track the FAC outbound for the published course reversal. This would likely
be replied with a "N12345 roger, report PT inbound" or something similar.

There is nothing in the AIM that makes an NoPT exception when you're already
set up on the FAC in non-vectoring situations. If you're not on a
transition with a NoPT note, or some other circumstance noted on the
approach procedure that excludes flying the PT, the PT must be flown.


2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

Not necessary. Whatever is the most direct and allowable means of reaching
NEPCO is fine.


3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.

1) cancel IFR
2) Request Visual or Contact Approach
3) Land, assuming you meet the requirements of 91.175c

Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.

Unless you're NORDO, you're required to contact ATC anytime you deviate from
a clearance.

What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

You're NORDO in VFR, just land, and cancel IFR on the ground.


-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in
:

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

NoPT means you cannot do a procedure turn without specific authorization
from ATC. You continue straight in. No means no.

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

Why would you do that? Presumably the approach leads to the airport, so
following the localizer or approach guidance will be the shortest route to
the airport. Once you have the airport in sight, you can maneuver as
necessary to land if you have to circle to a different runway.

Have you had no instrument training? All this should have been covered in
detail in any instrument instruction.

--
Regards,

Stan