Stop whining, America!

"Matt Barrow" wrote

BIG difference between fresh water and salt? Or _relatively_ shallow
water?

Just curious...the closest I ever got to water was McHales Navy.

The shallow water of the Great Lakes is the major factor, but the strength
of the sudden squalls also makes it wicked.

It is hard to explain how steep the waves get in Lake Erie. I have no
direct experience on Lake Michigan, or on the Eastern end of Erie. As I
said in another post, the depth of West Erie is less than 30 feet. I think
28 sticks in my mind.

To try an explain how steep a 12 foot wave is, let me relate a tale of mine,
on the lake.

I was with my Dad, and other family members on a fine day, with relatively
calm waves of 2 to 4 feet. The sky darkened up ahead, and we turned on the
weather radio. A storm warning was up for a fast moving squall line, moving
fast towards us. We were way out of sight of land; about 12 miles, which
might have been 100, as far as getting out of the way of the storm was
concerned.

We prepared the boat by reefing the main sail (reducing the surface area of
it, by almost half), and taking down the jib. (front sail) The wind came
up, and it was so strong that we could not control the boat, so we took the
main down. Our next option was starting the motor to try to keep at 45
degrees to the waves; reducing the chance of being turned over, and reducing
the strength of the waves from hitting them head on. Soon the wind was
blowing around 50 to 60 MPH, and the waves had gone from 4 feet to 12 feet
or more, all in the time span of 20 minutes. On the ocean, a sudden squall
would have made the boat harder to handle because of the wind, but the waves
would not have increased nearly that quickly; taking hours instead of
minutes. Depth is the factor, again.

Here is what I was leading up to, to help you understand.

The waves were so steep, that while we were on top of the wave, the
propeller was OUT of the water. The faces of the waves had to have been
more than 45 degrees, as we went up and down them. The top of one wave to
next was very close together, with the front and the back of the boat
touching the last wave and the next one, all at the same time.

Soon, we were not able to control the direction of the boat in relation to
the waves, since the prop was out of the water for so long. The only thing
we had left was to throw the anchor out and hope it held, and tie it to the
bow. (front) It held, and we rode out the storm for another 30 minutes, and
then the waves started to get smaller, and another 30 minutes we were on our
way. I feared for my life, that day.

Now, for all of you sailors out there, we did very little right, that day.
It was the first year, (we didn't know nearly enough) and we were still
learning, and not well equipped for such storms. We got a storm jib (very
small) and another set of reefs for the main, (to make it smaller, yet) and
purchased a sea anchor. That is a unit that looks somewhat like a wind
sock, and provides a way to let the boat drag through the water, and pull on
the boat to keep it pointed in the direction that you need.

The ocean wind makes big waves, but if you are in deep water, the angle of
the faces of the waves are maybe 15 or 20 degrees. (until you get to the
perfect storm type of waves g) Compare that to more than 45 degrees for
Lake Erie. A 25 foot boat seems big, but unless sailed correctly, is no
match for those conditions.

I hope this helps you understand a little bit more of how quickly it gets
fierce on the Great Lakes. It has killed many experienced sailors, and in
much bigger boats, and even ships.
--
Jim in NC

"W P Dixon" wrote

Sailor green on
the Great Lakes? I don't think so. A newbie, sure ..but not a stout old
salt.

Don't be so sure. I would not take anything away from your tales of the
ocean's violence, but the Great Lakes are rough in a totally different way.
They will get your attention.

I'm sure there are some out there that have seen the worst of both. Some
have died, not believing the Great Lakes could be more than they could
handle, even though they were experienced open ocean sailors.
--
Jim in NC

JH Well, a very serious argument can be made that the
JH environmental regulations of the last 30 years have seriously
JH harmed our economy.

In your original post you said the US economy is on track to double in
18 years, now you're saying the economy has been seriously harmed.
Which way is it?

Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well -- but away from
manufacturing.

Why are we no longer able to compete in the manufacturing arena? High cost
of production -- far higher than our competitors.

What goes into the high cost of production? Labor costs, of course, and
infrastructure costs. We won't belabor the labor costs (ooo, sorry), but
our infrastructure costs are SO far out of line with our competitors (and
common sense) that I'm amazed ANYTHING is made in this country anymore.
EVERYTHING is regulated -- everything.

And this stupid over-regulation has invaded every facet of business, going
far beyond environmental laws or the manufacturing realm. Here are just a
few examples I must deal with locally:

- If I remodel the hotel TOO extensively, I will have to comply with the
Federal ADA laws -- something we are grandfathered under, because the hotel
is 26 years old. This would mean going out of business.
- If I paint stripes in my four parking lots, I must put "x" number of
handicapped parking spots right up near the doors, rather than allowing my
arriving guests the convenient spots for loading/unloading. Therefore, I
don't paint stripes in my lots.
- If I were to add a new parking lot, I would have to comply with new laws
that stipulate that I plant "x" number for trees for every paved parking
spot. So I get by with my current parking lots.
- If I were to change the signage out front of the hotel too dramatically
(say, by adding an airplane to the sign?), it would come under more recent
regulations that prohibit a 3-story sign in front of a business. So, I
make-do with my 20-year-old sign.
- City ordinance prohibited us from putting a "Grand Opening" sign out front
of the hotel when we bought the place 3 years ago. That's right -- the
local bureaucrats have wound their tendrils so tightly around the throats of
businesspeople that even something as innocent as a "Grand Opening" sign is
forbidden by law.

Now, can you imagine what it would take to build an oil refinery??? We
can't even change our sign without ****ing off some scuzz-ball bureaucrat!

Our country is screwed up far worse than the average guy on the street can
imagine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

There is a somewhat famous picture of a J30 (IIRC) that launched off the
back side of a wave off Michigan City at the south end of Lake Michigan.
The boat was totally out of the water with the sails still pulling. Kinda
reminded one of the Morrow Bay incident picture.


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote

BIG difference between fresh water and salt? Or _relatively_ shallow
water?

Just curious...the closest I ever got to water was McHales Navy.

The shallow water of the Great Lakes is the major factor, but the strength
of the sudden squalls also makes it wicked.

It is hard to explain how steep the waves get in Lake Erie. I have no
direct experience on Lake Michigan, or on the Eastern end of Erie. As I
said in another post, the depth of West Erie is less than 30 feet. I
think
28 sticks in my mind.

Dying isn't what the man said, he said get green. Big difference. An
experienced sailor can die in Cherokee Lake making a mistake. But he will be
a hell of alot less likely to make that mistake than your normal run of the
mill, put the bass boat in the water type. I am not disputing storms in the
Great Lakes at all, just disputing the strenght as compared to the sea's
fury.
Just some wave info on the Great Lakes,

Rogue waves are not exclusively an ocean phenomena. The National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has recorded rogue wave patterns occurring
frequently on the Great Lakes. Storm wave patterns on Lake Superior in the
winter occasionally reach 26 feet and could create a rogue wave over 57 feet
based on NOAA's observations. One of the theories behind the tragic sinking
of the famous freighter Edmund Fitzgerald is that she was downed by a rogue
wave during a major storm on Lake Superior back in November 1975. No one
will know for sure as everyone perished. from an article in Boat/US
Magazine

From the same article about waves in the ocean that just poof there it is ,
not even a storm....

Imagine cruising on a perfect sailing day and suddenly staring at a 35- to
40-foot wave that comes out of nowhere. "I remember as a boy cruising off of
Cape Hatteras in a calm sea, seeing a rogue wave come out of nowhere,"
remembers Bob Adriance--editor of Seaworthy, the BoatU.S. Marine Insurance
news-journal. "Fortunately we were able to turn and negotiate a wave that
was higher than my dad's 34-foot cruiser."

That's just a normal happening, that isn't even saying the heights of
storm waves, though the article does go on to mention some very impressive
numbers. And mostly admits the ocean is so vast it may be possible that the
bigget waves have never been recorded. 80 foot is not uncommon.

Not doubting storms can be bad in the Great Lakes but a well seasoned
sailor is not going to get green. He is used to running around a ship making
sure aircraft are chained to the deck in these storms at sea. He is a
professional, doesn't mean for an instant he can't die..things happen. But
let's be realistic about a green sailor. There is a big difference in the
wording.



Patrick

student SPL

aircraft structural mech



"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"W P Dixon" wrote

Sailor green on
the Great Lakes? I don't think so. A newbie, sure ..but not a stout old
salt.

Don't be so sure. I would not take anything away from your tales of the
ocean's violence, but the Great Lakes are rough in a totally different
way.
They will get your attention.

I'm sure there are some out there that have seen the worst of both. Some
have died, not believing the Great Lakes could be more than they could
handle, even though they were experienced open ocean sailors.
--
Jim in NC

I was an executive for a manufacturing company that used a ton of resins to
make products of fiberglass. We met very stringent environmental regs.
That's not what sent the jobs overseas: What sent the jobs overseas was
Chinese labor working for 50 cents an hour, six days a week. That's why we
no longer make things: because Americans want weekends and a living wage.
And I gotta say that if Americans were willing to work for that kind of
money, no one over here would ever have been able to afford our product, and
our factory would never have got started in the first place.

Seth

"Jose" wrote in message
...
Well, a very serious argument can be made that the environmental
regulations of the last 30 years have seriously harmed our economy.

Remember when America used to actually *make* things?

And an equally serious argument can be made that we just pay Americans far
more than they are worth, and it's catching up to us, which is what's
really hurting the economy (and driving the jobs overseas).

Remember when we used to actually *fix* things?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

So "stop whining America" turns into "whining about zoning laws." Cool.

Seth

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fiRPe.282953$x96.223118@attbi_s72...
JH Well, a very serious argument can be made that the
JH environmental regulations of the last 30 years have seriously
JH harmed our economy.

In your original post you said the US economy is on track to double in
18 years, now you're saying the economy has been seriously harmed.
Which way is it?

Both, of course. Our economy has grown strongly and well -- but away from
manufacturing.

Why are we no longer able to compete in the manufacturing arena? High
cost of production -- far higher than our competitors.

What goes into the high cost of production? Labor costs, of course, and
infrastructure costs. We won't belabor the labor costs (ooo, sorry), but
our infrastructure costs are SO far out of line with our competitors (and
common sense) that I'm amazed ANYTHING is made in this country anymore.
EVERYTHING is regulated -- everything.

And this stupid over-regulation has invaded every facet of business, going
far beyond environmental laws or the manufacturing realm. Here are just
a few examples I must deal with locally:

- If I remodel the hotel TOO extensively, I will have to comply with the
Federal ADA laws -- something we are grandfathered under, because the
hotel is 26 years old. This would mean going out of business.
- If I paint stripes in my four parking lots, I must put "x" number of
handicapped parking spots right up near the doors, rather than allowing my
arriving guests the convenient spots for loading/unloading. Therefore, I
don't paint stripes in my lots.
- If I were to add a new parking lot, I would have to comply with new laws
that stipulate that I plant "x" number for trees for every paved parking
spot. So I get by with my current parking lots.
- If I were to change the signage out front of the hotel too dramatically
(say, by adding an airplane to the sign?), it would come under more recent
regulations that prohibit a 3-story sign in front of a business. So, I
make-do with my 20-year-old sign.
- City ordinance prohibited us from putting a "Grand Opening" sign out
front of the hotel when we bought the place 3 years ago. That's right --
the local bureaucrats have wound their tendrils so tightly around the
throats of businesspeople that even something as innocent as a "Grand
Opening" sign is forbidden by law.

Now, can you imagine what it would take to build an oil refinery??? We
can't even change our sign without ****ing off some scuzz-ball bureaucrat!

Our country is screwed up far worse than the average guy on the street can
imagine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Seth Masia" wrote in
:

Snipola
through two (smallish) automobiles and a motorcycle. But this summer
I've been riding the bike a lot (40 mpg) and commuting on my bicycle
Snipola

Just out of curiosity, what kind of M/C and how do you ride it? That
is, how hard are you on the throttle?

Driving hard on my '86 Harley Sportster my long term average mileage
is around 40mpg. That's with high speed freeway driving and hard
acceleration off the stop lights. When I was a younger rider and
didn't drive so hard* my mileage was closer to 60mpg. Record was
88mpg while sightseeing in the mountains at 40mph.

*(ie hadn't learned to be afraid of other cars yet, which is why
I drive so hard now)

The reason I ask is because other motorcyclists I've talked to about
mileage always seemed to think 40mpg was really good, whereas I've
always thought it was lousy, but recognize it as due to my heavy
hand on the throttle.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2005-08-26, ls wrote:

(it's no accident that our fearless leader GWB is suddenly pushing
hydrogen fuel cells and alternative energies - he's spoken with Simmons
on many occasions recently).


Trouble with hydrogen as a fuel... the only economical way we have of
making it is using fossil fuels, so it is NOT a solution for peak oil.

Not without a major investment in nuclear powerplants (so hydrogen can
be obtained by electrolysis).

Agreed...

In fact, all of the currently available alternatives are unworkable for
all practical purposes, at least at the current time.

To make a quite long story short, the only alternative we have at the
current time is conservation - and we know what that means vis-a-vis the
oil-consuming economies....

Also, for what it's worth, I saw a very complete presentation on the
peak oil issue by a senator on CSPAN not long ago. The senate was
virtually empty at the time, but at least it appears there's some
awareness of the problem creeping even into congress now....

As I said, in light of all this, my ownership plans have certainly
changed dramatically in the last year or so. And I've also noticed the
local RV's do a lot more sitting on the ramp all of a sudden...

LS
N646F

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:56:19 -0700, Bob Fry wrote:

MB Gee..the prices went up WORLD WIDE! Is he president of the
MB World?

He thinks he is.

yes, but only because his god has said him so.

#m

--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed,
most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we
come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein