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ASH 26E VS DG 808C



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 22nd 06, 05:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roger[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Eric, can you explain span loading as opposed to wing loading?

On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That

removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able

to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org


  #12  
Old October 22nd 06, 05:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is much more
expensive so that limits the market. What would you like in the next
generation of MG.


It's been 12 years since I chose my glider, and I haven't kept up with
the details of the other gliders. So far, none seem to offer enough
improvement to make the effort to investigate them carefully. The
electric gliders are very promising: The Antares is expensive but high
performance; the electric Silent and Apis are much cheaper but with
lesser performance. Would I be happy with a smaller, cheaper, lighter
glider that's less trouble on the ground but not as long-legged in the
air? I don't know! I'd love to fly each of them for several flights...


On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That

removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able

to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
  #13  
Old October 22nd 06, 06:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Roger wrote:
Eric, can you explain span loading as opposed to wing loading?


Span loading = weight/span. I don't have a good technical reference for
it, but it accounts for aspect ratio effects to some extent. Consider
two gliders with the same wing area and weight, giving them the same
wing loading. The one with the higher aspect ratio, and consequently
lower span loading because the span is greater, will thermal better.
It's weight could be increased until they climbed the same, but it would
now have a higher wing loading and cruise better.

I mentioned it because it seemed likely you were thinking of 15 meter
ships flying around empty in the weak winter conditions at about 7.5
lbs/sq ft, and wondering how an 18 meter glider could possibly keep up
at 8.5 lbs/sq.

On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That

removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able

to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
  #14  
Old October 22nd 06, 06:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kilo Charlie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:JlB_g.416$ke4.139@trndny02...
Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to
do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave
the field.


Ah Hah.....so you DO admit that having the motor is an advantage! ;-)

Casey
KC


  #15  
Old October 22nd 06, 01:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Lindsay
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

In article , Marc
Ramsey writes
wrote:
Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?


Well, they could start by figuring out a way to sell them for less than
I paid for my house...


When you think of the thousands of hours of skill labour that goes into
a modern glass sailplane, you wonder how they can sell them so cheap.
--
Mike Lindsay
  #17  
Old October 22nd 06, 04:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Kilo Charlie wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:JlB_g.416$ke4.139@trndny02...
Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to
do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave
the field.


Ah Hah.....so you DO admit that having the motor is an advantage! ;-)


Admit? Admit? I've claimed and promoted that for 10 years! It's not an
advantage for everyone, however, as I discuss in detail in my "Guide"
(see below for a copy). I do a lot more soaring in a lot more places
because I have a self-launching sailplane; unfortunately, the cost
(mostly) and complexity of motorgliders keep plenty of pilots from
joining me. The electric powered gliders are addressing the complexity
issue, but the not the cost.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
  #18  
Old October 22nd 06, 05:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Roger wrote:
What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus
the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs,


For most of my flying, the 8.2 lbs my ASH 26 E flies at is just about
right. I often take off early, so even the 9.2 lbs I could go to isn't
useful, and most flights seem to include a slow part where I might dump
the ballast anyway. Also, I'm too lazy to bother putting in water for
the slight advantage it might give, except at contests or speed record
attempts.

A pilot flying the eastern ridges might prefer the extra lb of wing
loading, also one that flew in areas with routinely strong conditions,
or flew only in the heart of the day, and didn't mind putting the
ballast in.

the stearable tail wheel


The ASH 26 E has an excellent steerable tailwheel for hard/firm
surfaces. For with _very_ soft fields, I suggest using the
interchangeable fixed pneumatic wheel or using the tail dolly to move it
into position.

and the
ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump?


I've always found it convenient to fill from a 5 gallon gas can I carry
in the glider (as do most DG owners) using the supplied electric pump
(this can carried or mounted permanently in the glider). I've never
wanted to move the glider to a pump or have a truck come to it. If you
need to fuel the glider at an airport where a can is not available, you
can easily carry a suitable container. In 12 seasons and 500 flights,
I've never been in this situation.

I too think the
26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and
leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude?

On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote:
I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth
between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who
worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of
composite fame).

I chose the 26E.

Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had
the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too.
Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again.

Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine
he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very
best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically
too.

bumper

wrote in ooglegroups.com...

I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
  #19  
Old October 22nd 06, 10:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

So we have heard form two ASH 26 owners. Any DG 800-808 owners want to
opine? I have heard the build quality is better on the ASH than the
DG, how so?

It seems to me that Western flyers would want the extra wing loading in
the summer. How do the cockpits compare between the DG and ASH? What
about sealing from the factory?

Allison

On Oct 22, 9:04 am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus
the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs,For most of my flying, the 8.2 lbs my ASH 26 E flies at is just about

right. I often take off early, so even the 9.2 lbs I could go to isn't
useful, and most flights seem to include a slow part where I might dump
the ballast anyway. Also, I'm too lazy to bother putting in water for
the slight advantage it might give, except at contests or speed record
attempts.

A pilot flying the eastern ridges might prefer the extra lb of wing
loading, also one that flew in areas with routinely strong conditions,
or flew only in the heart of the day, and didn't mind putting the
ballast in.

the stearable tail wheelThe ASH 26 E has an excellent steerable tailwheel for hard/firm

surfaces. For with _very_ soft fields, I suggest using the
interchangeable fixed pneumatic wheel or using the tail dolly to move it
into position.

and the
ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump?I've always found it convenient to fill from a 5 gallon gas can I carry

in the glider (as do most DG owners) using the supplied electric pump
(this can carried or mounted permanently in the glider). I've never
wanted to move the glider to a pump or have a truck come to it. If you
need to fuel the glider at an airport where a can is not available, you
can easily carry a suitable container. In 12 seasons and 500 flights,
I've never been in this situation.



I too think the
26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and
leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude?


On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote:
I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth
between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who
worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of
composite fame).


I chose the 26E.


Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had
the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too.
Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again.


Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine
he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very
best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically
too.


bumper


wrote in ooglegroups.com...


I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org


  #20  
Old October 22nd 06, 11:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andor Holtsmark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default ASH 26E VS DG 808C

At 04:30 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is
much more
expensive so that limits the market.


I'd like to object to this comment.
Before you decide on an aircraft (or make comments
about their pricing), please get up to date offers
for all brands you would concider, make sure that the
offers include ALL the itimes you will need to operate
the aircraft, then look at the BOTTOM line.
The bottom line Antares pricing is competitive with
similar infernal combustion based products.

It must also be said that ALL sailplane manufacturers
offer an amazing amount of product for the money they
charge. There is a lot of idealism in the business.


Anyway, if you are seriously interrested in an antares,
then you are also more than welcome to make an appointment
for a visit to Lange Flugzeugbau, including a test
flight. Then you will know where the money goes. Contact
information can be found at www.Lange-Flugzeugbau.com

Cheers, Andor

(yep, I work there)





 




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