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#11
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Mapping Glider Locations
COLIN LAMB wrote:
Response: See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator Colin Lamb K7FM (licensed in 1959) OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law, the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me! Scott N0EDV |
#12
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Mapping Glider Locations
"§97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur service frequency from any place that is:" Response: N1547C set up a track just as I mentioned and the control operator was not on the aircraft. The FCC knew about it (many years ago) and thee were no problems. You do not need to be physically present at a transmitter site to have physical control over the amateur station. For example, I can place my station remotely and use a link to operate it. In that case, I have physical control over it and am in compliance with part 97. Similarly, I can have a telephone nearby and a person present and make a telephone call to tell the person to turn the transmitter off. I am the control operator and the transmitter is under the physical control of me. If I turn the APRS transmitter on before flight, then turn it off after the flight, there is no question that I am in control, as long as I have a radio link with the non-ham pilot to be able to tell him to turn off the APRS transmitter, or I can turn it off after the flight. It need not be immediate. This assumes the non ham is not able to change frequency or use a mike or other things - which would not happen in an APRS installation. A sanitary installation would have everything in a sealed box, with just an on-off switch. A "gray" area would occur if the non-ham operator could arbitrarily turn the APRS unit on, but there are "work arounds". If the transmitter is connected to the ignition switch of the aircraft, so that being turned on is incidental to the operation of the aircraft, then it could be argued that the non-ham does not have control. And, it would ber better if the on-off switch was not resetable, which means it could be turned off, but not turned on. It also could go into a sleep mode, unless the aircraft was moving and never be turned on by the non-ham. When the pilot returned to where th eham was, it could be shut off. Hams have been operating in "gray" areas for years and it is not a big issue. I operate a ham repeater and have for decades. For some period of time, they operated in a gray area. Similarly, hams have been connecting to the internet for years, even though that is also a gray area. Colin Lamb |
#13
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Mapping Glider Locations
"I doubt you'd have to. If the transmitter power is turned off, no
position reports could be sent out." Response: it was a joke. |
#14
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Mapping Glider Locations
"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!" Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented. The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing. There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets called on the carpet. Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity. Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he could become a ham so he could control things himself. We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control operator. I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time. As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public benefit. Colin Lamb |
#15
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Mapping Glider Locations
COLIN LAMB wrote:
"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law, the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!" Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented. The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing. There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets called on the carpet. Exactly. That is why I wondered if you had objections to the possibility of having your call used by Joe Public so to speak. Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity. Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he could become a ham so he could control things himself. We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control operator. I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time. As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public benefit. OK, but to me PERSONALLY, I take "gray areas" as "indeterminate and intermediate in character" (Webster's Universal College Dictionary) meaning that while something may not be specifically illegal, it may not necessarily be specifically legal either. This is the area where lawyers dwell (as noted in an old Don Henley song). It sounds to me that gray areas tend to be used by people that are after something that is good for them rather than good for the public in general. I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After all, it's not hard to get a license these days. Scott N0EDV Colin Lamb |
#16
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Mapping Glider Locations
"I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After all, it's not hard to get a license these days." Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft. Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight. Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots. You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can follow your flight on a Google map on the internet at www.findu.com . Then, you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him, congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer. Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes. Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let his wife know about it. Colin Lamb |
#17
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Mapping Glider Locations
Colin,
I'm a glider pilot and a ham. I read the opinions on your wiki and on this thread. I'd be comfortable going out to the field and setting up a tracker for a particular flight and taking the system home at the end of the day, but there's no way I would set one up as a permanent installation in a glider. The point of being control operator is that you are in control of the transmissions. A permanent installation in someone else's airplane is in no way remaining in control of the radio, even if you could theoretically ask them politely to let you disengage or modify the system. The right way to do this (and it is a good idea that I hope catches on) is to find another piece of spectrum intended for this use and to get a proper license to use it. Operating in "grey areas" is not where a responsible ham or pilot should be. Respectfully, Joel Odom W4LL http://joelodom.blogspot.com/ On Jun 1, 4:00 pm, "COLIN LAMB" wrote: "I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After all, it's not hard to get a license these days." Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft. Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight. Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots. You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can follow your flight on a Google map on the internet atwww.findu.com. Then, you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him, congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer. Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes. Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let his wife know about it. Colin Lamb |
#18
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Mapping Glider Locations
Hello Joel:
The original post was not for the purpose of encouraging a non-ham to have a permanent APRS installation. The point of the original post was to familiarize those not acquainted with APRS about the possibilities for use with soaring. It has some real benefit over SPOT in that fellow pilots can follow each other, even though they do not have internet capability. And, there is no service fee. I know a number of soaring pilots who are hams. The post also included the fact that the benefits can be utilized by non-hams. There is no gray area about that. That was somewhat like a footnote, since it was not the main purpose of the post. I posted a website which contained further information, for those that were interested. Suddenly, The thread turned to "it cannot be done", so that has consumed much of the content. Note that I did not advocate that a ham should install hundreds of APRS systems and then walk away. I am going to build a couple and try them out in my glider and a friend's glider. I am going to turn them on and turn them off. I did not advocate a permanent installation, and you yourself admitted you would be comfortable letting a non-ham fly with one. In days of old, we went down to the FCC office and had to pass a code test, with some government official breathing over our shoulder. I did that. No more. Code has gone away and the written test is no longer taken in an office. You can memorize the question pool in a day and take the exam - if there is a benefit from becoming an amateur. APRS might be that benefit. In essence, the thread started selling the benefits of amateur radio, demonstrating that amateur radio can provide safety and convenience to the glider pilot. It was not to promote an outlaw operation. The FCC knows exactly what is going on with APRS and has not handed down one adverse ruling, letter or public statement even suggesting anything that I advanced in my statements is in a gray area. I expect the reason is that they wish to advance technology and promote technical growth. Remember that the original application of APRS was a unit that was placed on a non-ham. I recall it was a blind runner in a marathon. As a result of this experiment, APRS is now used by many agencies and services. Colin Lamb |
#19
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Mapping Glider Locations
COLIN LAMB wrote:
"§97.5 Station license grant required. (a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur service frequency from any place that is:" Is it a good idea to rely on continued operation in a "gray area" when dealing with either the FCC or the FAA? Unfortunately, both systems are set up to encourage exactly that, with varying Reg. interpretations and enforcement priorities from one region to another. How about this? §97.109 Station control. (a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point. (b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Jack |
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