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#111
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"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ... In NYC it is common for the head janitor to be over a hundred grand... DAmn! |
#112
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"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote When I was in school there were teachers able to motivate almost any student and teachers that couldn't motivate anyone. Matt When did you graduate from high school? Not recently, I'll bet. How do you measure motivational abilities? It is all objective. I teach carpentry. I am the only one teaching that subject at my school. How am I to be measured against other teachers? How do teachers of other subjects get students into their classes, equally capable of being motivated? The different levels of students are in different classes, to appropriately challenge their abilities, or to bring up performance levels of lower performing students. How do you compare the teacher's motivational abilities, now? You will say, you "just know" who the teachers are that are the better motivators. That is simply too objective, and too able for unfairness to work its way in. There are no easy answers. When you have them, come and be our state superintendent. -- Jim in NC |
#113
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In article ,
"Morgans" wrote: In NYC it is common for the head janitor to be over a hundred grand... DAmn! The actual job title isn't "head janitor." It's something like "Chief Engineer, Physical Plant" or something like that. |
#114
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Morgans wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote When I was in school there were teachers able to motivate almost any student and teachers that couldn't motivate anyone. Matt When did you graduate from high school? Not recently, I'll bet. Not recently. 1977. However, there are still good teachers and bad teachers and students who can be motivated. This has been true since the time of the Greeks. How do you measure motivational abilities? By how well the students in a given teacher's class learn and perform. It is all objective. I teach carpentry. I am the only one teaching that subject at my school. How am I to be measured against other teachers? How do teachers of other subjects get students into their classes, equally capable of being motivated? The different levels of students are in different classes, to appropriately challenge their abilities, or to bring up performance levels of lower performing students. How do you compare the teacher's motivational abilities, now? If only it were all objective. Much of it is subjective, but that is life. If you are a teacher that doesn't know the difference between objective and subjective, then I can make a pretty quick assessment of your competence. :-) You measure the performance of students after they graduate from high school and move to college or trade school. If all of your carpentry students go on to carpentry vocational school and flunk out, then I'd not rate you very highly as a carpentry teacher at the high school level. I'm not claiming that performance evaluations are easy or pristinely objective, but they are better than using "seat time" as an evaluation metric. I evaluate a dozen scientists and engineers every year. They all do different things in different areas of expertise. However, I solicit feedback from their peers, from their subordinates and combine that with my own observations. Not a perfect system, but far better than using service time. You will say, you "just know" who the teachers are that are the better motivators. That is simply too objective, and too able for unfairness to work its way in. That would be too subjective. I agree that isn't the best way to do it, but there are many other tools to use to get a reasonably accurate and fair assessment. There are no easy answers. When you have them, come and be our state superintendent. Never said they were easy. I'm not looking for easy, I'm looking for better. Almost anything is better than using service time. That is the easy way out. Requires no work at all on the part of the administrators. What a cop out. Matt |
#115
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"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote: How do you measure motivational abilities? By how well the students in a given teacher's class learn and perform. That doesn't always work. Last year in my classes I had borderline mentally retarded students, students with autism, students with emotional disturbances, students with memory disorders, etc. Even if they were highly motivated during class sometimes the information turned to vapor by the time they got to their next class. Kids with safty issues at home don't do homework, don't retain information and tend not to do very well in school no matter what class they are in. Kids who spend a few weeks during the term in juvie lock up tend not to score real well on the tests either. Margy |
#116
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Russell Kent wrote: Margy Natalie wrote: REALLY?!?!? Send them to Northern VA where we had lots of unfilled positions last year with subs filling in. For quite a while 1/3 of our special ed teachers were on emergengy certificates. We can't find enough teachers to fill the rooms. Well maybe that's your problem then: you're supposed to fill the rooms with STUDENTS plus ONE teacher. :-) On a different subject, I was considering having Harbor Freight drop ship a bunch of the cheap stuff (like the $3 voltmeters) to some worthy school science departments. Know of any such departments? Know what's on their wish lists? Find a school and contact the science department chair. They will be very pleased with you! Margy |
#117
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Margy Natalie wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote: How do you measure motivational abilities? By how well the students in a given teacher's class learn and perform. That doesn't always work. Last year in my classes I had borderline mentally retarded students, students with autism, students with emotional disturbances, students with memory disorders, etc. Even if they were highly motivated during class sometimes the information turned to vapor by the time they got to their next class. Kids with safty issues at home don't do homework, don't retain information and tend not to do very well in school no matter what class they are in. Kids who spend a few weeks during the term in juvie lock up tend not to score real well on the tests either. Nothing works always. However, I think that basing pay on service time is just plain wrong. It is just like communism. You get the same reward whether you work hard or coast along. Merit pay systems aren't perfect as I said earlier, and they aren't completely objective either. You still need administrators to use judgement in cases like you mention above. However, warts and all, I think pay for performance is simply better than pay for seat warming time. Matt |
#118
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You are clueless.
See Ya - Not |
#119
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Matthew S. Whiting wrote: Newps wrote: A year ago December the teachers in our district went on strike for better pay and benefits. The conventional wisdom is that your typical public school teacher is lucky to make $30K after many hard years of teaching. Since teachers salaries are a matter of public record a full page ad was taken out in the Sunday paper the first weekend of the strike. Every teacher in the school district was listed, by name, and how much they made for that current school year. Turns out the average teacher salary is $41.5 here with 25-30% of the teachers making more than $50K per year. Starting pay was mid $20's. You could literally see the support for the teachers evaporate on that Sunday. A settlement was reached shortly there after. A teacher strike will not ever happen here again. Did the teachers then post the salaries of the administration personnel? That would be very eye opening... That was also in the ad however it wasn't relavant because people weren't complaing about the number of administrators or their pay, before or after the ad. Even the salaries you list above are way below the average in my area for jobs that require a master's degree. That depends where you live obviously. What was finally driven home to a lot of people was the fact that simply by spending more dollars does not make education better. |
#120
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Newps wrote in message news:sckMb.28303$xy6.71345@attbi_s02...
Matthew S. Whiting wrote: Newps wrote: A year ago December the teachers in our district went on strike for better pay and benefits. The conventional wisdom is that your typical public school teacher is lucky to make $30K after many hard years of teaching. Since teachers salaries are a matter of public record a full page ad was taken out in the Sunday paper the first weekend of the strike. Every teacher in the school district was listed, by name, and how much they made for that current school year. Turns out the average teacher salary is $41.5 here with 25-30% of the teachers making more than $50K per year. Starting pay was mid $20's. You could literally see the support for the teachers evaporate on that Sunday. A settlement was reached shortly there after. A teacher strike will not ever happen here again. Did the teachers then post the salaries of the administration personnel? That would be very eye opening... That was also in the ad however it wasn't relavant because people weren't complaing about the number of administrators or their pay, before or after the ad. Even the salaries you list above are way below the average in my area for jobs that require a master's degree. That depends where you live obviously. What was finally driven home to a lot of people was the fact that simply by spending more dollars does not make education better. Amen to that..... Now, As Rodney King said " can we all just get along? " |
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