Flying when you know there is something wrong with the plane

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 6...
| Saryon wrote
|
| But are we talking about minor niggly things that can be MEL'd,
| or "something *wrong* with the airplane"
|
| Me'thinks that you are misusing the phrase since neither a
| Cessna 172 nor any other small single engine airplane has
| a published Minimum Equipment List (MEL). Hence...no MEL'ing
| anything. Sure sounds good though.

Strictly speaking, an MEL is not 'published.' It is developed by a charter
operator (or anybody else who wants an MEL, for that matter, but it is kind
of silly for anyone else to want one) and submitted to the FSDO for review.
Once approved it is given back to the operator along with a letter of
authorization to be kept in the aircraft. The MEL together with the LOA
constitute an STC, but unlike other STCs the MEL does not go with the
airplane with a change of ownership. An MEL is specific to a particular
airplane being used by a particular operator. Getting an MEL for an aircraft
can be both time consuming and expensive.

Larger aircraft may have a Master MEL produced by the manufacturer. The FAA
has a Master MEL for small single engine aircraft as well. However, these
Master MELs are not MELs themselves, but only guidelines for developing your
own MEL. If you want an MEL for your Cessna 172 you would use the FAA Master
MEL and the equipment list in the manual as a basis for developing your MEL.

Yes, there are Cessna 172s that have MELs. You might well wonder why someone
would have an MEL for a Cessna 172 when that aircraft meets the small plane
exception to the "no flight with inoperative equipment" rule, but there are
specialized situations, including some bush operations, that make it
convenient to have an MEL. It is extremely unlikely that you will find an
MEL on a small single engine airplane that is being used by a flight school
or rental operator. Even charter operators will not get an MEL unless it is
absolutely essential to their operation.

Robert Moore wrote:
Saryon wrote

But are we talking about minor niggly things that can be MEL'd,
or "something *wrong* with the airplane"

Me'thinks that you are misusing the phrase since neither a
Cessna 172 nor any other small single engine airplane has
a published Minimum Equipment List (MEL). Hence...no MEL'ing
anything. Sure sounds good though.

I'm not sure if that is a formal Minimum Equipment List, but if you check
e.g. the POH for a C-172, section 6, "Weight and Balances", then you will
notice that there is an equipment list and that e.g. the stall warning horn
is marked with F04-R, the "R" indicating that this is a required item.
And yes, I as a plain student pilot did ground a C-127 because the stall
horn didn't work. The FBO took the plane out of service immediately, and
when I checked out the same plane a few days later the stall horn was fixed.
Same with a rough engine. During run-up the engine would drop about 400rpm
on the left magneto. The CFI tried to burn off carbon deposits, but when
that didn't work after a few minutes we went back, grounded the plane, and
even had to cancel the lesson because all the other planes were in use
already.

So no, there are FBOs that are very responsible and responsive and don't
provide rotten planes. That doesn't mean that the seats are in perfect shape
or paint has no scratches. But when it comes to safety I am confident that
my FBO doesn't skimp.

jue
jue

"C J Campbell" wrote

Strictly speaking, an MEL is not 'published.' It is developed by a
charter operator (or anybody else who wants an MEL, for that matter, but
it is kind of silly for anyone else to want one) and submitted to the
FSDO for review. Once approved it is given back to the operator along
with a letter of authorization to be kept in the aircraft. The MEL
together with the LOA constitute an STC, but unlike other STCs the MEL
does not go with the airplane with a change of ownership. An MEL is
specific to a particular airplane being used by a particular operator.
Getting an MEL for an aircraft can be both time consuming and expensive.

The following is a post that I made some time back in rec.aviation.ifr
Note the references to a Master MEL being required to develop an MEL.
There are no MMELs published for small single engine aircraft.
I would certainly change my position if shown procedures for the issuance
of an MEL without first having a MMEL.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Mis-use of terminology strikes again! None of you guys have
seen an MEL for a single engine Mooney. The list of equipment
contained in small aircraft AFMs is not an MEL, but just an
"Installed Equipment List". I would suggest reading the
following web page for information on MMELs (Master Minimum
Equipment Lists) published for types of aircraft and MELs
approved for specific (N number) aircraft. An MEL must be
developed by the operator and approved by the FAA.

http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/customer/mmel.pdf

There are some small twin engined aircraft that do have a
published MMEL and these can be found at the following site.

http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/Final/smallac/

And......from the following excellent web page:


http://www.aero.und.edu/inet/avit325...douts/MEL.html
__________________________________________________ _____
What is a Minimum Equipment List?

A Minimum Equipment List (MEL) is a Supplemental Type
Certificate issued by the FAA which allows a specific
aircraft to continue operating in an airworthy condition,
although certain required instruments or items of the
equipment are inoperative.
A MEL is a document that lists the instruments and equipment
that may be inoperative without jeopardizing the safety of the
aircraft.
The MEL includes procedures for flight crews and/or maintenance
crews to follow when securing or deactivating inoperative
instruments or equipment.


What is a Master Minimum Equipment List?

A Master Minimum Equipment List (MMEL) is the standard list of
items and procedures for a standard aircraft make and model.
The MMEL must be expanded, defined and approved before being
used as a MEL.
The FAA makes the MMEL for the standard make and model of
aircraft but will not approve it until it has been completed.
The MMEL is only a guide to be used in developing a MEL.
Can a MMEL be used in the aircraft for inoperative instruments
or equipment?

No, MMEL cannot be used because:
- The MMEL does not have any crew operating procedures established.
- The MMEL does not have any maintenance procedures established.
- The MMEL does not have any regulations procedures established.
- The MMEL does not have the owner's/operator's name and the aircraft
N number on each page of he document.
- The FAA will not issue a letter of authorization (LOA) on the MMEL-
it has to be converted into a MEL.
What is considered required instruments and equipment on an aircraft?

· Required instruments and equipment include:
- all of the instruments and equipment the aircraft was certified
with.
- All of the optional equipment installed on the aircraft at the time
it was certified.
- Any additional instruments or equipment installed by the
owner/operator.
What is an airworthy aircraft?

The aircraft certification rules consider all installed instruments
and equipment on an aircraft, including optional equipment, as part
of the type design. Therefore, an aircraft may not be airworthy
unless all installed instruments and equipment are maintained in an
operable condition except is provided for by an approved MEL.
Which aircraft are eligible to use a MEL?

All Multi-engine aircraft are eligible to use an approved MEL if a
letter of authorization (LOA) has been issued by the FAA (for
specifics reference FAR 91.213).
What benefits can an owner/operator achieve from a MEL?

A MEL allows the owner/operator to legally continue operating an
aircraft with some of its installed instruments or equipment
inoperative, without fear of FAA violations or rejected payment from
an insurance claim.
Increased flexibility and utilization for the owner/operator.
What is involved in making a MEL?

The following steps must be completed prior to the FAA issuing
approval for a MEL:
- Obtain a MMEL from the local FSDO office of the FAA.
- Develop the crew operating and maintenance procedures required by
the MMEL.
- Develop procedures to comply with the "as required by FARs"
sections in the MMEL.
- Develop a training program to instruct the users of the MEL about
its proper use.
- Present proposed MEL to FAA for review.
- Make changes, additions, deletions or corrections as required by
the FAA Inspector.
How does an owner/operator obtain a MEL?

Obtained by FAA approval of the MEL and LOA. The MEL plus LOA
constitute a STC (Supplemental Type Certificate). Therefore, this
document (MEL+ LOA) must be carried on board the aircraft. An
important pre-flight item.
Is the MEL/LOA Transferable?

No. If the aircraft is sold, the MEL/LOA must be returned to the FAA.
Remember: The MEL lists only those items that may be inoperable. If
an item is not listed in the MEL, it must be operable in order for
the aircraft to be airworthy.

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
...
| "C J Campbell" wrote
|
| Strictly speaking, an MEL is not 'published.' It is developed by a
| charter operator (or anybody else who wants an MEL, for that matter, but
| it is kind of silly for anyone else to want one) and submitted to the
| FSDO for review. Once approved it is given back to the operator along
| with a letter of authorization to be kept in the aircraft. The MEL
| together with the LOA constitute an STC, but unlike other STCs the MEL
| does not go with the airplane with a change of ownership. An MEL is
| specific to a particular airplane being used by a particular operator.
| Getting an MEL for an aircraft can be both time consuming and expensive.
|
| The following is a post that I made some time back in rec.aviation.ifr
| Note the references to a Master MEL being required to develop an MEL.
| There are no MMELs published for small single engine aircraft.
| I would certainly change my position if shown procedures for the issuance
| of an MEL without first having a MMEL.
|

The FAA published a generic MMEL for single engine piston aircraft on
February 2, 1998. However, the OPSPECS web site does not contain MMELs
published before 2000. Also, the Cessna 208 is a small single engine
airplane for which an MMEL has been published. You may see it at
http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs...llac/CE208R5C/.

"C J Campbell" wrote

The FAA published a generic MMEL for single engine piston aircraft on
February 2, 1998. However, the OPSPECS web site does not contain MMELs
published before 2000. Also, the Cessna 208 is a small single engine
airplane for which an MMEL has been published. You may see it at
http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs...llac/CE208R5C/.

Yep...I should have said non-turbine single engine. Where can I find
that generic MMEL for single engine piston aircraft?

Bob Moore

Robert Moore wrote:

Me'thinks that you are misusing the phrase since neither a
Cessna 172 nor any other small single engine airplane has
a published Minimum Equipment List (MEL). Hence...no MEL'ing
anything. Sure sounds good though.

The 172SP I flew last month out of an airport in Arizona had an MEL.

Rob

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
I can't remember where I read it, but I seem to recall that in the majority
of fatal accidents the pilot knew something was wrong with the airplane
before he even took off. It does seem like a popular trend reading through
the accident databases. But can anyone point me to a study that actually
supports this view?

Although in the majority of accidents the pilot knew something was
wrong, that does not mean that the majority of flights where the pilot
knew something was wrong necessarily resulted in an accident.

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 8...
| "C J Campbell" wrote
|
| The FAA published a generic MMEL for single engine piston aircraft on
| February 2, 1998. However, the OPSPECS web site does not contain MMELs
| published before 2000. Also, the Cessna 208 is a small single engine
| airplane for which an MMEL has been published. You may see it at
| http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs...llac/CE208R5C/.
|
| Yep...I should have said non-turbine single engine. Where can I find
| that generic MMEL for single engine piston aircraft?

It is listed on the OPSPECS site as manufacturer "A1" along with some other
generic MMELs, including a blank MMEL template. Unfortunately, it is not
available for download because it is so old. I wonder if I can get a copy
from a FSDO. I knew of its existence because when I was doing the paperwork
for my own charter certificate (I eventually gave up the effort because the
insurance hurdle is insurmountable) I asked as a matter of curiosity what it
would take to get an MEL for my Cessna 206. My FSDO rep said that I would
have to use the generic single engine airplane MMEL, but that he did not at
that time have a copy and that he would have to do some research to hunt
down how it was filed.

"Saryon" wrote in message

....it was just faster to type MEL in the context of "something I
don't have to have in working order to fly so can get fixed later".
Sorry this digressed from that into a pedantic discussion of the
actual definition and usage of a MEL.........

??????

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

Even charter operators will not get an MEL unless it is
absolutely essential to their operation.


Actually, almost all charter operators do have an MEL for their Part
135 airplanes because without it you could not fly if ANYTHING were
inoperative, i.e. without an MEL you could not even fly day VFR in
severe clear with an inoperative pitot heater.

---
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com