An Olive Branch

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Ok, I've been too busy to read the newsgroups but you guys are really nuts! No
Child Left Behind does NOTHING to improve student achievement. The schools
often have little to work with in the first place and I'm not talking $$. I
teach in one of the best schools in one of the best systems in the country. My
school has an upward of 98% pass rate on the science SOL (our standards test)
but some of our kids aren't passing and no matter what I do they won't. Do you
know if you have a borderline mentally retarded student taking science for
learning disabled kids they need to pass the test? Well, if the retarded kids
can pass, how good is the test?

This sounds like a modernized version of "outcome based education" and
most of us know how well that worked.

Passing a kid who does not have the capability of doing the work is
not doing them any favors. Passing a kid who won't do the work is not
doing them any favors either.

I feel sorry for the kids in situations that prevent them from doing
their work, but again that is not the schools, or teachers fault and
it is not doing the kind any favors by passing them.

Lowering the qualifications for passing the tests does everyone a
disservice.

Let's face it, If you or I, or any adult doesn't have the capabilities
to do a job we were hired to do, we are fired. If we don't do the
work, regardless of our capabilities we still get fired. What happens
to the kid who is passed through school without the ability to do the
work, or who doesn't do the work? At best they can hope for menial
labor and the odds are they won't do well there either.

Life is harsh. If we don't have the education we can not compete. If
we don't have the capability, we can't compete. There are many who
just do not have the capability to do so and the system has to
accommodate them, but it shouldn't drag the entire educational system
down in the process.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 12/17/04 4:24 AM, in article ,
"Roger" wrote:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Ok, I've been too busy to read the newsgroups but you guys are really nuts!
No
Child Left Behind does NOTHING to improve student achievement. The schools
often have little to work with in the first place and I'm not talking $$. I
teach in one of the best schools in one of the best systems in the country.
My
school has an upward of 98% pass rate on the science SOL (our standards test)
but some of our kids aren't passing and no matter what I do they won't. Do
you
know if you have a borderline mentally retarded student taking science for
learning disabled kids they need to pass the test? Well, if the retarded
kids
can pass, how good is the test?

This sounds like a modernized version of "outcome based education" and
most of us know how well that worked.

Passing a kid who does not have the capability of doing the work is
not doing them any favors. Passing a kid who won't do the work is not
doing them any favors either.

I feel sorry for the kids in situations that prevent them from doing
their work, but again that is not the schools, or teachers fault and
it is not doing the kind any favors by passing them.

Lowering the qualifications for passing the tests does everyone a
disservice.


No Child Left Behind is gov-speak for No Child Allowed to Excel.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

The Wizard's 2004 Christmas newsletter
http://www.wizardofdraws.com/main/xmas04.html

Roger wrote:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Ok, I've been too busy to read the newsgroups but you guys are really nuts! No
Child Left Behind does NOTHING to improve student achievement. The schools
often have little to work with in the first place and I'm not talking $$. I
teach in one of the best schools in one of the best systems in the country. My
school has an upward of 98% pass rate on the science SOL (our standards test)
but some of our kids aren't passing and no matter what I do they won't. Do you
know if you have a borderline mentally retarded student taking science for
learning disabled kids they need to pass the test? Well, if the retarded kids
can pass, how good is the test?

This sounds like a modernized version of "outcome based education" and
most of us know how well that worked.

Passing a kid who does not have the capability of doing the work is
not doing them any favors. Passing a kid who won't do the work is not
doing them any favors either.

Why do ALL students have to pass ALL tests? What's wrong with the kid that just
doesn't make it in Algebra II doing something else. Who says EVERYONE must pass
Algebra II to be ok? (I know the answer here, the State of Virginia says you must
pass Algebra II). I agree that MOST students should be able to pass MOST tests, but
NCLB demands high stakes testing of all students. I agree that standards can be
applied. NY used to have general diplomas and Regents diplomas. The Regents
diploma meant the student had passed a series of exams. Now states are required to
have exams for all diploma, so a struggling student who may be very qualified for a
number of professions can't manage to pass the tests and can't find employment due
to no high school diploma. This is good?



I feel sorry for the kids in situations that prevent them from doing
their work, but again that is not the schools, or teachers fault and
it is not doing the kind any favors by passing them.

Lowering the qualifications for passing the tests does everyone a
disservice.

Let's face it, If you or I, or any adult doesn't have the capabilities
to do a job we were hired to do, we are fired. If we don't do the
work, regardless of our capabilities we still get fired. What happens
to the kid who is passed through school without the ability to do the
work, or who doesn't do the work? At best they can hope for menial
labor and the odds are they won't do well there either.

Life is harsh. If we don't have the education we can not compete. If
we don't have the capability, we can't compete. There are many who
just do not have the capability to do so and the system has to
accommodate them, but it shouldn't drag the entire educational system
down in the process.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:01:54 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:


snip

Why do ALL students have to pass ALL tests? What's wrong with the kid that just
doesn't make it in Algebra II doing something else. Who says EVERYONE must pass
Algebra II to be ok?

People who don't realize that most of the population will never use
Algebra?

(I know the answer here, the State of Virginia says you must
pass Algebra II).

I was right:-))

I agree that MOST students should be able to pass MOST tests, but
NCLB demands high stakes testing of all students. I agree that standards can be
applied. NY used to have general diplomas and Regents diplomas. The Regents
diploma meant the student had passed a series of exams. Now states are required to
have exams for all diploma, so a struggling student who may be very qualified for a
number of professions can't manage to pass the tests and can't find employment due
to no high school diploma. This is good?

Nope and I see nothing wrong with the two, or even the three tiered
system.

Why make the kids seeking a technical education do the same work of
those going into college and science? By the same token, why make
those who are unable to pass those same tests if all they are ever
going to be qualified to do is unskilled labor. It may be an over
simplification, but to me these are entirely different tracks.

Of course some one is going to say that is class discrimination, but
we do not live in a classless society. Given the opportunity we each
reach our own level. Some times it takes a bit of prodding though.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:01:54 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:


snip

Why do ALL students have to pass ALL tests? What's wrong with the kid
that just
doesn't make it in Algebra II doing something else. Who says EVERYONE
must pass
Algebra II to be ok?

People who don't realize that most of the population will never use
Algebra?

(I know the answer here, the State of Virginia says you must
pass Algebra II).

I was right:-))

I agree that MOST students should be able to pass MOST tests, but
NCLB demands high stakes testing of all students. I agree that standards
can be
applied. NY used to have general diplomas and Regents diplomas. The
Regents
diploma meant the student had passed a series of exams. Now states are
required to
have exams for all diploma, so a struggling student who may be very
qualified for a
number of professions can't manage to pass the tests and can't find
employment due
to no high school diploma. This is good?

Nope and I see nothing wrong with the two, or even the three tiered
system.

Why make the kids seeking a technical education do the same work of
those going into college and science? By the same token, why make
those who are unable to pass those same tests if all they are ever
going to be qualified to do is unskilled labor. It may be an over
simplification, but to me these are entirely different tracks.

Of course some one is going to say that is class discrimination, but
we do not live in a classless society. Given the opportunity we each
reach our own level. Some times it takes a bit of prodding though.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

What really sucks is the kid that wants to go into a trade/technical job
won't get much in the way of training from high school. Schools now days
chop shop classes at the first opportunity. It's a shame as half the kids
leave high school having spent 4 years that will do little if anything to
ready them for the work place. Most can't even fill out an application.