when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

Without knowing what exactly was said by the controller on the second
call we can go around and around on this until the cows come home and
not come to a definate conclusion about whether he was legal to
proceed. Any debate is really meaningless without knowlege of exactly
what was said by the controller on the second call.


If he was issued an instruction that overrode the previous instruction to
remain clear of Class C airspace then he was legal to enter Class C
airspace. If he was not issued an instruction that overrode the previous
instruction to remain clear of Class C airspace then he was not legal to
enter Class C airspace. There is no gray area here.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

Steven, just as you said that the previous instructions would not be
explicitly cancelled, so too is the "remain clear." Using the tail
number - especially with the phrase "radar contact" - definitely
makes it for me. I would enter the Class C.


Then you would be operating an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an
area in which air traffic control is exercised and thus be in violation of
FAR 91.123(b). An instruction to "remain clear" is implicitly overridden by
an instruction that requires or permits entry of the Class C airspace. "Fly
heading 110, vector for traffic" would do it, so would "proceed on course"
or "enter a right base for runway 32", but "radar contact" would not.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

These are both right. Using the tail number is enough to establish radio
contact and grants permission to enter the Class C. That is exactly why
the extra "remain clear of the Class C" was included in the departure
clearance. If the tail number were not enough, then that would not be
necessary.

After departure, the tail number and a radar contact are enough radio
contact to enter the class C. If the controller needed something
different,
it would be added as a "Cessna 1234, radar contact, remain clear of the
class C."


The "remain clear of the Class C" applies only after departure and remains
in effect until overridden by an instruction that permits or requires entry.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

Steven, just as you said that the previous instructions would not be
explicitly cancelled, so too is the "remain clear." Using the tail
number - especially with the phrase "radar contact" - definitely
makes it for me. I would enter the Class C.


Then you would be operating an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in
an
area in which air traffic control is exercised and thus be in violation of
FAR 91.123(b). An instruction to "remain clear" is implicitly overridden
by
an instruction that requires or permits entry of the Class C airspace.
"Fly
heading 110, vector for traffic" would do it, so would "proceed on course"
or "enter a right base for runway 32", but "radar contact" would not.



I don't think so. From the AIM 3-2-4,
3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. ...

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."

I think that this makes it pretty clear that any acknowledgement of a
specific aircraft without a specific caution to remain clear is sufficient
radio contact to allow clearance into a Class C. Using your example of a
subsequent instruction implicitly canceling a previous instruction applies
here as well.


-------------------------------
Travis

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the controller's
calls?

Who said the pilot didn't respond? ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear of
Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to some
destination, then returns the following day and establishes the requisite
two-way communication before entering Class C. Is yesterday's "remain
clear" instruction still in effect? If not, when did it expire?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:uGLXb.186249$U%5.916363@attbi_s03...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still
in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the
controller's
calls?

Who said the pilot didn't respond? ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear of
Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to some
destination, then returns the following day and establishes the requisite
two-way communication before entering Class C. Is yesterday's "remain
clear" instruction still in effect? If not, when did it expire?

--Gary



It doesn't matter but conceptually, the "remain clear" does not expire. The
next day, the pilot will again make contact to gain entry to the class C.
The pilot will say, "Cessna 1234, 8 NE, landing Big City, with information
Echo." The controller will respond with "Cessna 1234, standby" - which is a
clearance to enter the class C, negating any previous instructions to remain
clear. Hearing no acknowledgement, or an explicit "remain clear" is a new
instruction to remain clear.

Whether it is a few minutes later, later the same day, the next day,
whatever, there is no explicit cancelation of the "remain clear" necessary.

-------------------------------
Travis

I would find this one confusing "Cessna 1234, where did you say you wanted
to go?" It uses the tail number which is enough but indicates that the
controller is still trying to figure out what to do with me. I would
question whether that establishes radio contact to enter the Class C.


Radio contact has been established. You have pemission to enter. It is not an
entry requirment that the controller know where you are or where you want to
go. See and avoid is not superceded. While it is sorted out, you may proceed
in.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:uGLXb.186249$U%5.916363@attbi_s03...

Who said the pilot didn't respond?


I did.



ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear
of Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to
some destination,


So the pilot changed his mind about entering the Class C airspace?

"John Harlow" wrote:

time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace".

Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound like
you could be a nuisance.

No, I get that instruction all the time, transitioning from PDX's two
close-in airports (Evergreen and Pearson). They issue a transponder
code, instruct you to remain clear until identified, and contact on
another frequency when airborne.

Rob

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:40:37 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in Message-Id:
. net:


So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..


Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.

If the controller who issued the "remain clear of Class C" instruction
was not the controller responsible for operations inside of the Class
C airspace, it would seem that radio contact with the controller who
is would grant permission to enter. In any event, to bring the issue
to the fore, I would have said, "facility name approach, Cessna 1234
location altitude _restricted_outside_Class_C, request..."