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#101
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Too many accidents
Just to correct a couple of misconceptions about the ASK21 and spinning.
It WILL spin without the use of a spin kit, it just needs a rearward CofG. Normally (but not always) with an instructor on board the CofG will be to far forward but once the pupil goes solo then that can be a very different matter! Any talk that an aircraft is unspinable is the type of thing that can lull trainees into a false sense of security. As for the comment that it make a good spin trainer with the spin weights I would have to disagree. Its spin entry and recovery are inconsistent even at the same CofG. If you look at the updated flight manual even the spin recovery is non-standard. Note the point that says "Warning: Fall forward stick may retard or even prevent spin recovery" https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/..._TM23_E_HB.pdf If your not careful you are training pilots with a recovery technique that will not work for all other aircraft. At 08:41 14 September 2018, Steve Thompson wrote: Referring to the ASK21 TM4b, publicly available on the AS site. I see on page 4 : "By following the spin ballast table a c.g. of approx. 406 mm (16 inch) is set in for the flight." As far as I can tell from other data, this is not the aft limit. I believe the aft limit is 469mm. The USAF spinning tests are well documented in the technical note flight manual and discusses inertia effects as well as just CG position effects. 406mm is aft enough. At 23:32 13 September 2018, Andreas Maurer wrote: On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:56:05 -0700 (PDT), krasw wrote: maanantai 10. syyskuuta 2018 16.54.53 UTC+3 kirjoitti: Un-spinable? You might want to watch this and look up the USAF report conducted on the spin characteristics of the ASK-21. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXH6XDxQdPY ASK21 is unspinable unless you equip with spin kit designed to move cg well aft of normal limits. Without this kit you cannot spin 21. One addition: The spin weights put the CG to the normal aft limit, but not beyond it. This is the same CG that you would have if a light pilot flies without a copilot. With the spin weights the ASK-21 is an excellent spin trainer. Cheers Andreas |
#102
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Too many accidents
Le vendredi 14 septembre 2018 14:30:05 UTC+2, Jonathan Walker a écritÂ*:
Just to correct a couple of misconceptions about the ASK21 and spinning. It WILL spin without the use of a spin kit, it just needs a rearward CofG.. Normally (but not always) with an instructor on board the CofG will be to far forward but once the pupil goes solo then that can be a very different matter! Any talk that an aircraft is unspinable is the type of thing that can lull trainees into a false sense of security. As for the comment that it make a good spin trainer with the spin weights I would have to disagree. Its spin entry and recovery are inconsistent even at the same CofG. If you look at the updated flight manual even the spin recovery is non-standard. Note the point that says "Warning: Fall forward stick may retard or even prevent spin recovery" https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/..._TM23_E_HB.pdf If your not careful you are training pilots with a recovery technique that will not work for all other aircraft. I agree with this. With the spin kit, spin entry is not at all like what you would see with an LS4, LS8 or Discus (which can be brought into a spin with the nose not much above the horizon. And I don't like the fact that recovery is non-standard. If the student uses the wrong technique, you will do 3-4 more turns after you've taken over controls. For that reasin, I don't do spin training with the ask below 1000 m AGL. |
#103
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Too many accidents
So...Â* If you'll only train spins in an aircraft with a "standard"
recovery, what's a solo pilot to do when he encounters a "non-standard" spin recovery requirement?Â* This sounds to me like something is lacking... On 9/14/2018 6:44 AM, Tango Whisky wrote: Le vendredi 14 septembre 2018 14:30:05 UTC+2, Jonathan Walker a écritÂ*: Just to correct a couple of misconceptions about the ASK21 and spinning. It WILL spin without the use of a spin kit, it just needs a rearward CofG. Normally (but not always) with an instructor on board the CofG will be to far forward but once the pupil goes solo then that can be a very different matter! Any talk that an aircraft is unspinable is the type of thing that can lull trainees into a false sense of security. As for the comment that it make a good spin trainer with the spin weights I would have to disagree. Its spin entry and recovery are inconsistent even at the same CofG. If you look at the updated flight manual even the spin recovery is non-standard. Note the point that says "Warning: Fall forward stick may retard or even prevent spin recovery" https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/..._TM23_E_HB.pdf If your not careful you are training pilots with a recovery technique that will not work for all other aircraft. I agree with this. With the spin kit, spin entry is not at all like what you would see with an LS4, LS8 or Discus (which can be brought into a spin with the nose not much above the horizon. And I don't like the fact that recovery is non-standard. If the student uses the wrong technique, you will do 3-4 more turns after you've taken over controls. For that reasin, I don't do spin training with the ask below 1000 m AGL. -- Dan, 5J |
#104
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Too many accidents
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:27:44 +0000, Jonathan Walker
wrote: As for the comment that it make a good spin trainer with the spin weights I would have to disagree. Its spin entry and recovery are inconsistent even at the same CofG. If you look at the updated flight manual even the spin recovery is non-standard. Note the point that says "Warning: Fall forward stick may retard or even prevent spin recovery" https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/..._TM23_E_HB.pdf If your not careful you are training pilots with a recovery technique that will not work for all other aircraft. So far I have always taught the standard spin recovery - stick neutral (!!), full opposite rudder, wait, recover. Works for all the gliders I've flown so far (60+) and I cannot remember any halfways modern glider where a different procedure is suggested. Of course, spin entry is not as violent as in other gliders, but in my opinion is is reasonably easy to give a valid demonstration. Cheers Andreas |
#105
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Too many accidents
I just reread the previous post that I responded to and see that the
poster only mentioned a higher altitude requirement to teach spins in that aircraft, not only teaching in that aircraft. On 9/14/2018 8:22 AM, Dan Marotta wrote: So... If you'll only train spins in an aircraft with a "standard" recovery, what's a solo pilot to do when he encounters a "non-standard" spin recovery requirement?Â* This sounds to me like something is lacking... On 9/14/2018 6:44 AM, Tango Whisky wrote: Le vendredi 14 septembre 2018 14:30:05 UTC+2, Jonathan Walker a écritÂ*: Just to correct a couple of misconceptions about the ASK21 and spinning. It WILL spin without the use of a spin kit, it just needs a rearward CofG. Normally (but not always) with an instructor on board the CofG will be to far forward but once the pupil goes solo then that can be a very different matter! Any talk that an aircraft is unspinable is the type of thing that can lull trainees into a false sense of security. As for the comment that it make a good spin trainer with the spin weights I would have to disagree. Its spin entry and recovery are inconsistent even at the same CofG. If you look at the updated flight manual even the spin recovery is non-standard. Note the point that says "Warning: Fall forward stick may retard or even prevent spin recovery" https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/..._TM23_E_HB.pdf If your not careful you are training pilots with a recovery technique that will not work for all other aircraft. I agree with this. With the spin kit, spin entry is not at all like what you would see with an LS4, LS8 or Discus (which can be brought into a spin with the nose not much above the horizon. And I don't like the fact that recovery is non-standard. If the student uses the wrong technique, you will do 3-4 more turns after you've taken over controls. For that reasin, I don't do spin training with the ask below 1000 m AGL. -- Dan, 5J |
#106
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Too many accidents
This accident was 8/22/2018, departure field KSEE, aircraft N# 1682G, cotanria 7KCAB
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#107
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Too many accidents
Here is a clip of an inadvertent glider stall. It appears the pilot immediatly puts in opposite aileron (not recommended). Can't see enough leg motion to see his rudder input or elevator control. He is very quick to dump the positive flaps (I assume that's what it shows), which is good technique I might have forgot. His text edit of the proper sequence of inputs looks fine.. Kudos to him for sharing.
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#108
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Too many accidents
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 9:10:20 PM UTC-5, Duster wrote:
Here is a clip of an inadvertent glider stall. It appears the pilot immediatly puts in opposite aileron (not recommended). Can't see enough leg motion to see his rudder input or elevator control. He is very quick to dump the positive flaps (I assume that's what it shows), which is good technique I might have forgot. His text edit of the proper sequence of inputs looks fine. Kudos to him for sharing. https://youtu.be/PpJA53LjarM?t=119 |
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