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#31
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East River turning radius
Ah... Well... I just through some random numbers in there... Of course, one
would not try and pull a 57G turn as cool as it sounds... Thanks for the lesson! I learned something new today... The calculator is correct by my reckoning. 80mph and 89 degree bank gives 8 ft radius turning circle which is correct in theory. it sounds ridiculous but really the 89 degree angle of bank is what is ridiculous . such a turn if possible would pull 57 g. the calculation is not that difficult. radius= v squared / g tan ( bank angle) terry -- Mike Flyin'8 PP-ASEL Temecula, CA http://flying.4alexanders.com |
#32
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East River turning radius
Swag,
To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster. Huh? To me, that means the postcrash fire ignited it. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#33
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East River turning radius
"swag" wrote in message
oups.com... Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the parachute had been thermally deployed? To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster. NYT today: "a representative of the plane's maker, Cirrus Design, which is working with the investigators, had determined that a small rocket ordinarily used to deploy the chute had fired. But it appeared that the rocket was set off by the heat of the fire that followed the crash, not by one of the occupants while the plane was in the air" http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/13/nyregion/13crash.html |
#34
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East River turning radius
Possible, also possible that they hoped the BRS chute would
open and cushion the forward speed and impact. We'll just have to wait and see all the evidence next year. There is already a CG video of the impact, there may be more video that will be found, the flight path will be refined, the pilots experience in the NYC area will be examined, the plane will be examined for any signs of a failure and including any bird damage [feathers and blood may have survived the fire and fall]. But for now, all pilots flying in and near such Class B corridors can brush up on their steep turns with minimum radius. Radio procedures and "self-announcing in the corridors or getting ATC clearance through rather than being required to turn might have helped in this case [ might other times too]. It should be noted that it didn't open. "swag" wrote in message oups.com... | Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the | parachute had been thermally deployed? | | To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster. | And it makes it much less likely that he was just botching up a turn | maneuver. I really have trouble visualizing a student with his flight | instructor flying into a building because he screwed up the turn. And | reaching up and pulling the big red lever in the roof. Since we're all | guessing, I'm going with loss of a flight control surface --maybe a | bird? | | Maule Driver wrote: | As soon as I heard East Side, Cirrus, building strike - I thought low | time pilot, hot aircraft, many distractions, wrong side of the VFR | corridor having do the U-turn. | | I've lived on Roosevelt Island (middle of the East River just south of | the turn) and flown the corridor in a 172. I early on decided never to | fly the East River just because it's too tight and too filled with | traffic. It's not unsafe, it's just unnecessarily challenging when the | Hudson provides an equivalent experience. | | I don't know how you properly train for that flight.... Few of us spend | much time flying within 1/4 mile of buildings and below their tops. All | of us can make the necessary turn at 1,000 feet in Iowa. Most of us | will find it catches your breath the first time you do it at 800 feet in | a concrete canyon near so many millions of people. Low ceilings, some | wind, some rapid fire Laguardia radio work in the background. It's | pretty high excitement. | | I had flown many hours ridge soaring the Appalachins - 500 feet above | valley floor, 2 wingspans from the trees, redlining at 155mph, 200 miles | from homebase. Then I went out west. It took me 3 days of flying | before I could get within a 1/4 mile of a Sierra peak, 5,000 feet above | the valley floor, at 60 mph, 2 miles from takeoff. Vice-a-versa for | western pilots flying the eastern hills. It's all in you head but it's | all quite real. We already have the knowledge and skills to do it. We | just have to get the quivering mass of grey matter to settle down enough | to let the training take over. | | Gary Drescher wrote: | Using the East River VFR corridor requires planning the turn | carefully--especially since you need to leave an extra margin in case you | have to dodge high-density traffic there. | | Yep. And not doing so can end up just like a guy in a used Porsche on a | rain slicked road - they just don't scramble jets on the west coast | while pulling the lifeless remains out of a Meadowlands swamp. | | No point here... just rambling. | |
#35
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East River turning radius
There were witnesses in the building, a working crew of
contractors if I remember, that reported seeing a puff of smoke above the airplane before it hit. Another GUESS on my part. They saw that they were going to crash into the building and pulled the handle hoping it would stop their forward speed and make the crash survivable. Either they waited too long or the chute malfunctioned. [If they did pull the handle, when and why will be subject to more guesses] "Gary Drescher" wrote in message . .. | "swag" wrote in message | oups.com... | Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the | parachute had been thermally deployed? | | To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster. | | NYT today: "a representative of the plane's maker, Cirrus Design, which is | working with the investigators, had determined that a small rocket | ordinarily used to deploy the chute had fired. But it appeared that the | rocket was set off by the heat of the fire that followed the crash, not by | one of the occupants while the plane was in the air" | | http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/13/nyregion/13crash.html | | |
#36
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East River turning radius
swag wrote:
Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the parachute had been thermally deployed? I took that to mean that the fire had caused to deploy. |
#37
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East River turning radius
wrote in message ... Ah... Well... I just through some random numbers in there... Of course, one would not try and pull a 57G turn as cool as it sounds... Thanks for the lesson! I learned something new today... The calculator is correct by my reckoning. 80mph and 89 degree bank gives 8 ft radius turning circle which is correct in theory. it sounds ridiculous but really the 89 degree angle of bank is what is ridiculous .. such a turn if possible would pull 57 g. the calculation is not that difficult. radius= v squared / g tan ( bank angle) terry I should add that this calulation assumes all the lift is coming from the wing , but that theory would imply that an aircraft cant hold altitude in a 90 degree bank, and of course we have all seen aerobatic aircraft do this. For this to occur the lift must be coming from the fuselage of the aircraft and so the equation will not be strictly correct. But for the type of turns that mere mortals like me will do I think it tells the story. I have heard guys on this group regulary mention 60 degree or 2 g turns, but in my training steep turns were 45 degrees maximum. terry |
#38
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East River turning radius
d&tm writes:
I should add that this calulation assumes all the lift is coming from the wing , but that theory would imply that an aircraft cant hold altitude in a 90 degree bank, and of course we have all seen aerobatic aircraft do this. No, you haven't. It's impossible to hold altitude in a 90° bank. In fact, it's impossible to execute a coordinated turn with a 90° bank. A 90° bank requires infinite speed, because the acceleration vector would have to be perpendicular to gravity, which is never possible as long as gravity is non-zero. With both vertical and horizontal non-zero components, the net acceleration vector can never be completely horizontal or vertical. You can eliminate the non-zero horizontal component in level flight, but you cannot eliminate the force of gravity, so a 0° "bank" (i.e., level flight) is perfectly possible, but a 90° bank is not. You can come infinitely close to 90°, but you can never reach it, in any type of aircraft. In an aircraft that can withstand 9 Gs, you can reach slightly less than an 84° bank, but no more. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#39
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East River turning radius
A manuever similar to what you are describing that I like to do in the
Archer is to leave the power on, pitch up 30 degrees, and hold that until the airspeed drops to 65 knots. Then I kick full left rudder and do a flat hammer head style turn while leaving the elevator in a neutral position to unload the wings to prevent a stall. I also use just enough aileron to keep the roll angle under control. The result is that I come out 180 degrees from my original heading and level out at the same altitude that I started at. The turn radius is very tight. Dean |
#40
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East River turning radius
swag wrote:
Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the parachute had been thermally deployed? The key word here is "thermally." Think about it. Matt |
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