Transponders

F1y1n wrote:
....

whether or not the glider is flying straight and level.


No.

Besides, exactly how many gliders are flying with Mode C right now?
Maybe one 1-26 in North Dakota?

In the USA, hundreds, at least, but mostly in the southwest and eastern
parts of the country. Stick your nose into the cockpits at Minden, for
starters. Once the Microair and Becker became available, they were
flying off the shelves at Wings & Wheels, Knauff & Grove, and elsewhere.
Motorgliders are much more likely to have them, also. In our ASH 26 E
owners group, I think about half of the 30 owners have Mode C.

By the time the 1-26 in North Dakota has one, the rest of us will have
moved onto Mode S.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

my experience is, that ATCs do not like glider pilots
as soon as they find out, that you cannot keep your
flight level.
In central Europe I had a transponder in the glider,
to get permission to cross some controlled corridors.
I mostly got permission to cross the airspace with
the condition of keeping flight level! A reply of not
being able to keep flight level invertet mostly the
permission into refusal.
The trick was then to enter the airspace first and then
request for sinking to flightlevel (-2FL for the 20km).
But the ATC never liked you for doing that!!

I think Transponder requirement is only virtually
increasing safety. You accept to install transponders
and as a thank you, they will steal you some more
airspace which has been free for VFR before!

Chris


"Mil80C" wrote in message
...
Thanks all for your responses, the idea was posted in another NG and as I
am
not of the soaring fraternaty, could not speak against it with any
experience. I will say that as an ATC, I will allways support your sport.

"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
om...
$30 will get you an extra battery which will run your transponder longer
than you can stay in the air. Unfortunately many pilots as well as the
FAA
don't know this.
Ramy

"CH" wrote in message
news
and how long does the battery last?
with the transponder on?
Australia decided, that planes without a permanent source
of power on board, do not need transponders in mixed
airspace.
I would prefer, that IFR traffic out of airport airspace should
fly higher than the convection height from sunrise to sunset :-)
How's that??
Chris

my experience is, that ATCs do not like glider pilots
as soon as they find out, that you cannot keep your
flight level.
In central Europe I had a transponder in the glider,
to get permission to cross some controlled corridors.
I mostly got permission to cross the airspace with
the condition of keeping flight level! A reply of not
being able to keep flight level invertet mostly the
permission into refusal.
The trick was then to enter the airspace first and then
request for sinking to flightlevel (-2FL for the 20km).
But the ATC never liked you for doing that!!

I think Transponder requirement is only virtually
increasing safety. You accept to install transponders
and as a thank you, they will steal you some more
airspace which has been free for VFR before!

Chris


"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Chris Nicholas wrote:
An experiment in the french Alps made with a group of tow planes
mimicking glider flight, i.e. circling together from time to time has
shown that transponders, except in mode S, may not be very useful in
gliders. As soon as 2 or more gliders are close together, e.g. circling
in the same thermal of working together the same ridge, they are hit
simultaneaously by the radar beam and generate simultaneaously their
responses, which results in both interfering and nothing useful
received at ATC. I had the chance of having one of the engineers
involved in the experiment as a passenger last September and he confirmed
this. In mode S, as each transponder is specifically adressable,
this mess will probably not occur, a new experiment using them is
planned.

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Kirk Stant wrote:

For a lot of people, it's $900+, which is about half the cost of
a transponder installation. When I look at it that way, I'm buying many
years of "insurance" for a one-time fee that is two years of hull
insurance.

Your "cost" seems a little low for the "total cost" of a transponder,
encoder, extra battery, and installation. Also, your
"one-time fee " should include the cost of recertification every 24 months
which could be around $200. That might be between 10% to 30% of the annual
hull insurance (depending on hull value).

Duane

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:32:14 GMT, Marc Ramsey
wrote:

Robert Ehrlich wrote:
The only such system I have heard about is TCAS. As far as I know
this system is not available on gliders, only on big airplanes
carrying passengers or military ones. It should emit hints to the
pilot for avoiding the collision based on altitude information, assuming
that the other aircraft is going to fly at a constant altitude, or
to follow the hint of its own TCAS, and neither is true for a glider.

TCAS/ACAS detects nearby transponder equipped aircraft. In the US and
western Europe, almost all aircraft larger than small twins now have
them. They will provide useful warning of the presence of a nearby mode
C equipped glider, whether or not the glider is flying straight and level.

Marc


go to www.arinc.com and search for TCAS. You will find a very useful
paper describing the characteristics of the TCAS system.

After describing how wonderful it all is note the sudden disclaimer at
the end.

Mike Borgelt

Robert Ehrlich wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:

... It did not examine whether airborne collision
avoidance systems would continue to provide warnings when confronted by
such situations.
...

The only such system I have heard about is TCAS. As far as I know
this system is not available on gliders, only on big airplanes
carrying passengers or military ones. It should emit hints to the

I've seen a $20,000 version of TCAS, with a graphic display and
altitude displayed, in an acquantence's 182. It seemed a little
big for a glider (display the size of a Garmin 430). And
my goodness I can only imagine the power consumption!

Duane Eisenbeiss wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...

Kirk Stant wrote:


For a lot of people, it's $900+, which is about half the cost of

a transponder installation. When I look at it that way, I'm buying many
years of "insurance" for a one-time fee that is two years of hull

insurance.

Your "cost" seems a little low for the "total cost" of a transponder,
encoder, extra battery, and installation.

It will be larger if you have to install another battery and pay someone
to do the total installation, but a lot of people will be able to use
the battery they have and do the installation themselves (proper
signoffs required, of course). A Microair + encoder + antenna is about
$1800 from your favorite soaring supplier.

Also, your
"one-time fee " should include the cost of recertification every 24 months
which could be around $200. That might be between 10% to 30% of the annual
hull insurance (depending on hull value).

A VFR check is about $50-$70; IFR certification is much more stringent
and is $150-$300. Hardly anyone will want to fly their glider IFR, but I
know at least one pilot that does (not IMC, but on IFR flight plans).

I decided to install one after seeing too many airliners too close.
Anyone that feels that way about their flying should look into
installing one, because it's not as costly they likely think it is. My
articles in the Febuary and March 2002 Soaring covered things in much
more detail than I can here.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Mike Borgelt wrote:


go to www.arinc.com and search for TCAS. You will find a very useful
paper describing the characteristics of the TCAS system.

After describing how wonderful it all is note the sudden disclaimer at
the end.

Could you be more specific, like a title? I get 32 hits and the few I
checked don't seem to be it.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

From what I can gather, the low-power transponders are 400mA
and encoder 200mA at about 12 volts.

The microfilm superthin solar panels about 1 foot square (12" by 12")
advertise 600mA at about 12 volts.

Sadly, the solar panels in my experience don't put out rated power
on typical days, with less than ideal sun angles (maybe really only
putting out 25%).

Also, I suspect transponders underrate their power consumption,
and if flown in high jet traffic areas (where they get
pinged by ATC and the jets), probably consume quite a bit more.

So really one might be looking at 8 square feet of solar
array just for a transponder! Maybe a little hard to
implement on a glider without using the wing surfaces,
and the caveats that entails...

Well, it was a nice thought...

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:40140af4$1@darkstar...
From what I can gather, the low-power transponders are 400mA
and encoder 200mA at about 12 volts.

The microfilm superthin solar panels about 1 foot square (12" by 12")
advertise 600mA at about 12 volts.

Sadly, the solar panels in my experience don't put out rated power
on typical days, with less than ideal sun angles (maybe really only
putting out 25%).

Also, I suspect transponders underrate their power consumption,
and if flown in high jet traffic areas (where they get
pinged by ATC and the jets), probably consume quite a bit more.

So really one might be looking at 8 square feet of solar
array just for a transponder! Maybe a little hard to
implement on a glider without using the wing surfaces,
and the caveats that entails...

Well, it was a nice thought...

That's today, tomorrow may well be different.

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...olarcells.html

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200...runc_sys.shtml

or this

http://www.californiasolarcenter.org...0030128-6.html

Perhaps someday be able to shoot a top coat that will take care of keeping
the batteries up. There's work being done at the nanotech level to make
these much more efficient. Imagine the diversity of applications, roofing
materials, car finishes, clothing, tents, aircraft, boats, etc.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado