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#71
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
The distortion, ignorance of facts and double standards are nearing exceptional levels.
I am concerned that the US rules committee functions more like a "think tank" than a committee of ALL fellow soaring pilots. 1) It is an indisputable fact that the FAI Club Class is highly successful around the world IN EVERY SOARING COUNTRY OTHER THAN THE USA. Safety, participation and enjoyments are all very high at Club events. The USA has for many years chosen to disregard the world standards and run on its own with the entirely unique US Sports Class along with completely different rules for all other classes. 2) The ENTIRELY new class being recommended by the US Rules Committee for 2013 Nationals has virtually no similarity to the REST OF THE WORLD in any way other than stealing the Club Class name. This is a fact. Different rules, different handicap ranges, different tasking philosophy. It would be FAR LESS RISKY to simply adopt the same class guidelines (FAI Club) as are currently used WORLDWIDE! The US Rules committee has chosen, once again, to do something completely different than the rest of the world. 3) The Rules Committee has been asked for years to approve a US Club Class by US owners of FAI Club Class Gliders. They asked for a US Class which follows the basic guidelines of FAI Club Class. Many of these pilots who have been asking for the SSA to sanction a US Club Class are now very upset, as this is NOT what they asked for. Not even close. The rules committee seems to thumb its nose at these 30 (and growing) pilots. Many more will not sign a public petition or simply will continue NOT TO FLY US CONTESTS. Many of these pilots are or have been on the US World Team and seem to have some knowledge on the subject. 4) It seems as if this new class has more to do more with streamlining the new upper level of sports class (Discus 2 and up) by removing the bottom quarter of the handicap range (233, etc) than anything else, frankly. This might be the part where I should say "am I getting warmer?" 5) I cannot stress this one enough: You say WE are requesting "SOMETHING ENTIRELY NEW" for 2013 Nationals by arguing for much more adherence to the established FAI Club Rules. You say this means taking financial risk, etc? You tell us to ask for a waiver and do it at a regionals first. You tell me to PUT MY MONEY WHERE MY MOUTH IS??? Ill get back to that later. In fact, it is the US RULES COMMITTEE which has (somehow) come up with the idea to propose something entirely new (and completely out of alignment with the rest of the World in terms of Club Class) for US National Championship for 2013 with a class that has never been attempted anywhere in the WORLD, EVER! 6) Running a US Club Class (FAI based) at SC Nationals next spring would be no more a challenge than introducing the entirely new class which you are proposing. It would be simple. No MATS. 50% AT, 50 AAT. Established Club Class handicap Range. Some slight modifications are fine, but that should be the basic model. That would be the FAR LESS RISKY OPTION. What planet are you from? It is MUCH MORE RISKY to try something entirely new and completely foreign from the REST OF THE WORLD... Sean F2 |
#72
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On Dec 1, 7:47*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
The distortion, ignorance of facts and double standards are nearing exceptional levels. I am concerned that the US rules committee functions more like a "think tank" than a committee of ALL fellow soaring pilots. 1) It is an indisputable fact that the FAI Club Class is highly successful around the world IN EVERY SOARING COUNTRY OTHER THAN THE USA. *Safety, participation and enjoyments are all very high at Club events. *The USA has for many years chosen to disregard the world standards and run on its own with the entirely unique US Sports Class along with completely different rules for all other classes. 2) The ENTIRELY new class being recommended by the US Rules Committee for 2013 Nationals has virtually no similarity to the REST OF THE WORLD in any way other than stealing the Club Class name. *This is a fact. *Different rules, different handicap ranges, different tasking philosophy. *It would be FAR LESS RISKY to simply adopt the same class guidelines (FAI Club) as are currently used WORLDWIDE! *The US Rules committee has chosen, once again, to do something completely different than the rest of the world. 3) The Rules Committee has been asked for years to approve a US Club Class by US owners of FAI Club Class Gliders. *They asked for a US Class which follows the basic guidelines of FAI Club Class. *Many of these pilots who have been asking for the SSA to sanction a US Club Class are now very upset, as this is NOT what they asked for. *Not even close. *The rules committee seems to thumb its nose at these 30 (and growing) pilots. *Many more will not sign a public petition or simply will continue NOT TO FLY US CONTESTS. *Many of these pilots are or have been on the US World Team and seem to have some knowledge on the subject. 4) It seems as if this new class has more to do more with streamlining the new upper level of sports class (Discus 2 and up) by removing the bottom quarter of the handicap range (233, etc) than anything else, frankly. *This might be the part where I should say "am I getting warmer?" 5) I cannot stress this one enough: *You say WE are requesting "SOMETHING ENTIRELY NEW" for 2013 Nationals by arguing for much more adherence to the established FAI Club Rules. *You say this means taking financial risk, etc? *You tell us to ask for a waiver and do it at a regionals first. *You tell me to PUT MY MONEY WHERE MY MOUTH IS??? *Ill get back to that later. In fact, it is the US RULES COMMITTEE which has (somehow) come up with the idea to propose something entirely new (and completely out of alignment with the rest of the World in terms of Club Class) for US National Championship for 2013 with a class that has never been attempted anywhere in the WORLD, EVER! 6) *Running a US Club Class (FAI based) at SC Nationals next spring would be no more a challenge than introducing the entirely new class which you are proposing. *It would be simple. *No MATS. *50% AT, 50 AAT. *Established Club Class handicap Range. *Some slight modifications are fine, but that should be the basic model. *That would be the FAR LESS RISKY OPTION. *What planet are you from? *It is MUCH MORE RISKY to try something entirely new and completely foreign from the REST OF THE WORLD... Sean F2 If I remember correctly pilots called for Club Class in 2007 and in 2008. The rules committee told the pilots to organize a regional contest and if all goes well and there is solid participation the project will be taken to the next level. Well in 2009 the first Club Class contest took place in Cordele. There were 17 pilots flying Club Class tasks (including assigned tasks). Since the contest run along side of the 15 m Nationals and some members of the rules committee were on site there was a discussion about the future of Club Class. Despite good pilot participation and calls for Club Class Nationals the Rules Committee found many arguments against it effectively killing the enthusiasm. In the past there were polls on this subject in favor of creation of the Club Class but somehow arguments against the class always won. Some pilots sold their club class gliders and moved on since they had no hope of ever getting there. So when I hear another call to create a regional Club Class contest I say I heard that before, but no thx. Overall the rules committee is doing a good job but in regards to Club Class issue I think the RC failed to lead. How many years will this issue be debated? As Sam Giltner said if you want a class you need stability. Pilots need to know what gliders to buy. No one can plan anything if the list of gliders constantly is being changed. It is not true that the IGC list changes often. Anyway since I am no longer having a Club Class glider I don't have a personal interest in this topic (at least for now) but it pains me to see how this problem is being approached. Please, look around at most contests there are no young faces any longer. The young faces are flying Club Class gliders and they are staying home. Another 10 years and the competition scene will be dead. The economy is terrible there is no upward mobility, gas is expensive, very few pilots will be able to afford new gliders. It is time for new ideas. The contest participation is collapsing at every contest you see mostly the same group of pilots. |
#73
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On Dec 1, 1:26*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" wrote:
On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:42:32 AM UTC-5, wrote: The U.S. is moving towards recognizing the Club Class in 2013. A poll has been created to validate interest in establishing FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy in this new class. *If approved the U.S. Club Class would be the ONLY U.S. racing class under FAI (IGC) racing rules. Please sign the petition IF YOU are interested in supporting or flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy. In the optional personal comment section please enter (if applicable): 1. *Your position on the US seeding list. 2. *If you have access to or own a Club Class glider, what type. 3. *If you are familiar with IGC rules and prefer those rules over US rules. 4. *If you would financially or otherwise support development of the US Club * Class under FAI (IGC) rules. 5. *If you don't currently fly US contests but would start flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules. 6. *If you currently fly US contests (Standard, Open, 15m, 18m or Sports) and are interested in flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules. 7. *Any other comments welcome! Link to petition:http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...s-association-... Sean Franke US Club Class Team Member Sean(s), I share BB's and UH's frustration with the level of nonsense in this thread. Demanding that the organizer (KS) *run the 2013 Club Class by FAI rules after the event being sanctioned and resources committed is simply a non-starter. Gutting the contest to hold the Club Class somewhere else is also a non-starter. Rather than all the bluster and rabble rousing rhetoric, commit your efforts to where your mouths are. *Procure a waiver to run a regional club class contest under FAI rules by making the convincing case that it will not be less safe than one conducted under US Rules. Hold the contest and demonstrate that it is popular (and take the financial risk). I.e put up or shut up. QT John, this is quite arrogant of you. After all you are on RC to serve. |
#74
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On Saturday, December 1, 2012 8:42:12 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Dec 1, 1:26*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" wrote: On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:42:32 AM UTC-5, wrote: The U.S. is moving towards recognizing the Club Class in 2013. A poll has been created to validate interest in establishing FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy in this new class. *If approved the U.S. Club Class would be the ONLY U.S. racing class under FAI (IGC) racing rules. Please sign the petition IF YOU are interested in supporting or flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy. In the optional personal comment section please enter (if applicable): 1. *Your position on the US seeding list. 2. *If you have access to or own a Club Class glider, what type. 3. *If you are familiar with IGC rules and prefer those rules over US rules. 4. *If you would financially or otherwise support development of the US Club * Class under FAI (IGC) rules. 5. *If you don't currently fly US contests but would start flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules. 6. *If you currently fly US contests (Standard, Open, 15m, 18m or Sports) and are interested in flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules. 7. *Any other comments welcome! Link to petition:http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...s-association-... Sean Franke US Club Class Team Member Sean(s), I share BB's and UH's frustration with the level of nonsense in this thread. Demanding that the organizer (KS) *run the 2013 Club Class by FAI rules after the event being sanctioned and resources committed is simply a non-starter. Gutting the contest to hold the Club Class somewhere else is also a non-starter. Rather than all the bluster and rabble rousing rhetoric, commit your efforts to where your mouths are. *Procure a waiver to run a regional club class contest under FAI rules by making the convincing case that it will not be less safe than one conducted under US Rules. Hold the contest and demonstrate that it is popular (and take the financial risk). I.e put up or shut up. QT John, this is quite arrogant of you. After all you are on RC to serve. Andrej, Sorry if you see me as arrogant, but my stance on not jerking around already sanctioned contests and especially their organizers is firm. As to whether we should adopt FAI rules for racing, there is a time honed process for this type of major change (and make no mistake, it is a majpor change). Regionals first followed by Nationals. Still waiting for an organizer to step up with a request for sanction and waiver... QT |
#75
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On Saturday, December 1, 2012 4:47:27 PM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
The distortion, ignorance of facts and double standards are nearing exceptional levels. I am concerned that the US rules committee functions more like a "think tank" than a committee of ALL fellow soaring pilots. Sean, Can I assume from your statements that you see nothing wrong with lightweight pilots flying with 80 pounds of lead in their cockpit to be at IGC MTOW and at equal wingloading with heavier pilots? Example: I fly a Discus b at 792# with a 1.08 IGC handicap. Sarah Arnold might fly a Discus A ( same 1.08 h/c) and would need well over 110# of lead to match my gross. How do you safely do this, and why? This IGC rule is absurd and I would not support it for a US Nationals. Rick Walters |
#76
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
Well - no - 110lb of lead in the cockpit would be a little unwise. But
110l of water in the wings might do it. Of course then the ballast can be dumped, which confers an advantage, and eventually you have angels dancing on pinheads... Have flown at a number of contests where there was a "target wing loading" - works quite well in practice, and can be done quickly. Just tow your main wheel over a scale each day on the way to the grid. Of course - my kestrel full of water is waaay below the agreed target wingloading but that is life. Bruce On 2012/12/02 2:48 PM, wrote: Sean, Can I assume from your statements that you see nothing wrong with lightweight pilots flying with 80 pounds of lead in their cockpit to be at IGC MTOW and at equal wingloading with heavier pilots? Example: I fly a Discus b at 792# with a 1.08 IGC handicap. Sarah Arnold might fly a Discus A ( same 1.08 h/c) and would need well over 110# of lead to match my gross. How do you safely do this, and why? This IGC rule is absurd and I would not support it for a US Nationals. Rick Walters -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771 |
#77
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:02:49 AM UTC-8, BruceGreeff wrote:
Well - no - 110lb of lead in the cockpit would be a little unwise. But 110l of water in the wings might do it. Of course then the ballast can be dumped, which confers an advantage, and eventually you have angels dancing on pinheads... Bruce, The two Sean's are proposing using IGC rules, which do not allow for any water ballast, period. They use lead at CC WGC. Should be lots of fun a ridge day at Mifflin. Rick W |
#78
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On Dec 1, 7:36*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Dec 1, 7:47*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote: F2 If I remember correctly pilots called for Club Class in 2007 and in 2008. The rules committee told the pilots to organize a regional contest and if all goes well and there is solid participation the project will be taken to the next level. Well in 2009 the first Club Class contest took place in Cordele. There were 17 pilots flying Club Class tasks (including assigned tasks). Since the contest run along side of the 15 m Nationals and some members of the rules committee were on site there was a discussion about the future of Club Class. Despite good pilot participation and calls for Club Class Nationals the Rules Committee found many arguments against it effectively killing the enthusiasm. In the past there were polls on this subject in favor of creation of the Club Class but somehow arguments against the class always won. Some pilots sold their club class gliders and moved on since they had no hope of ever getting there. So when I hear another call to create a regional Club Class contest I say I heard that before, but no thx. Overall the rules committee is doing a good job but in regards to Club Class issue I think the RC failed to lead. How many years will this issue be debated? As Sam Giltner said if you want a class you need stability. Pilots need to know what gliders to buy. No one can plan anything if the list of gliders constantly is being changed. It is not true that the IGC list changes often. Anyway since I am no longer having a Club Class glider I don't have a personal interest in this topic (at least for now) but it pains me to see how this problem is being approached. Please, look around at most contests there are no young faces any longer. The young faces are flying Club Class gliders and they are staying home. Another 10 years and the competition scene will be dead. The economy is terrible there is no upward mobility, gas is expensive, very few pilots will be able to afford new gliders. It is time for new ideas. The contest participation is collapsing at every contest you see mostly the same group of pilots. The creation of a club class at sports class nationals in 2013 is exactly the culmination of the process you mention. Yes, we listened. We said create club regionals. You did. It was a success. A modest success -- we didn't see 30 coming out -- but it did prove the concept has legs. Club class regionals are now a permanent, non-waiver class that organizers can choose anytime they want to, and pilots can ask organizers to do. We kept our end of the deal. Why have they not happened? They're in the rules, we did all we could. Now it's up to you guys to keep going past the first burst of enthusiasm. We write the rules, we don't run contests and we don't call pilots and persuade them to show up. In any case, now we have created a club nationals too, just as we said we would. Given the dwindling enthusiasm shown for club regionals, the still low participation of club gliders at sports nationals, and the vexing problem of what to do with gliders like the sparrowhawk, which do not fit IGC club class, we included the lower performance gliders. One step at a time. We MUST ensure that the new class succeeds. If we create a class at nationals and 7 pilots show up and everybody gets sent home, that is the END of the class. If 17 pilots show up in the first burst of enthusiasm and then 7 show up the next year, this is the END of the class. We MUST make decisions based on data, not on theories (if you use IGC rules 50 pilots will come out of the woodwork and fly -- even though they're not on the seeding list) We will not repeat the world class fiasco. Are you listening? We're on your side here. This is our best attempt to create what you want, in a way that will be durable and successful. The use of SSA rules, and the US team upper limit for club class (ventus 1) has been in these US club class experiments all along. So, you guys got 95% of what you had been asking for: A separate class at nationals, following on the same model that was tried and demonstrated at regionals. All you had to do was suffer the indignity of letting a sparrowhawk or 1-34 tag along (there are usually 1-2 such gliders at sports nationals). We figured we'd be getting bouquets of flowers and boxes of chocolates. But no: Suddenly you demand that we use IGC rules and a different glider list, and send the sparrowhawhk home. Leaving aside the start, finish, scoring formulas, metric units, tiny turn radii, these rules impose completely different procedures. Quick, what are the IGC weight limits? Rules on modifications? Rules on use of fixed and disposable ballast? How many of your pilots know how to fly these rules? Doing this at a nationals without trying it at regionals would be insane. So, yes. If you want to completely change the concept of the class -- which IGC rules really is! -- that needs to be worked out at a regionals, not at a nationals, that is already sanctioned. The sanctioning process includes a check of things pilots expect like, is there a scorer and a CD who knows the rules they race is going to fly under! Sean has a theory that it's a 5 minute job with see you to use a different set of rules. He needs to talk to John Good and Ken Sorenson and find out about the months -- months -- it took to get rules and procedures worked out for Uvalde. I'm sorry for the irritated tone. But when we give you 95% of what you wanted, in the form that we had all been working on steadily for 5 years, and then suddenly the demands change radically at the last moment, ignoring all the previous work, ignoring all the practicalities of what it takes to run a contest, well, you can imagine it's a little irritating. John Cochrane I'm interested by the number of posters such as yourself who have (like me) sold their club gliders and moved up. Mayb |
#79
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:32:03 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
On Dec 1, 7:36*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote: On Dec 1, 7:47*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote: F2 If I remember correctly pilots called for Club Class in 2007 and in 2008. The rules committee told the pilots to organize a regional contest and if all goes well and there is solid participation the project will be taken to the next level. Well in 2009 the first Club Class contest took place in Cordele. There were 17 pilots flying Club Class tasks (including assigned tasks). Since the contest run along side of the 15 m Nationals and some members of the rules committee were on site there was a discussion about the future of Club Class. Despite good pilot participation and calls for Club Class Nationals the Rules Committee found many arguments against it effectively killing the enthusiasm. In the past there were polls on this subject in favor of creation of the Club Class but somehow arguments against the class always won. Some pilots sold their club class gliders and moved on since they had no hope of ever getting there. So when I hear another call to create a regional Club Class contest I say I heard that before, but no thx. Overall the rules committee is doing a good job but in regards to Club Class issue I think the RC failed to lead. How many years will this issue be debated? As Sam Giltner said if you want a class you need stability. Pilots need to know what gliders to buy. No one can plan anything if the list of gliders constantly is being changed. It is not true that the IGC list changes often. Anyway since I am no longer having a Club Class glider I don't have a personal interest in this topic (at least for now) but it pains me to see how this problem is being approached. Please, look around at most contests there are no young faces any longer. The young faces are flying Club Class gliders and they are staying home. Another 10 years and the competition scene will be dead. The economy is terrible there is no upward mobility, gas is expensive, very few pilots will be able to afford new gliders. It is time for new ideas. The contest participation is collapsing at every contest you see mostly the same group of pilots. The creation of a club class at sports class nationals in 2013 is exactly the culmination of the process you mention. Yes, we listened. We said create club regionals. You did. It was a success. A modest success -- we didn't see 30 coming out -- but it did prove the concept has legs. Club class regionals are now a permanent, non-waiver class that organizers can choose anytime they want to, and pilots can ask organizers to do. We kept our end of the deal. Why have they not happened? They're in the rules, we did all we could. Now it's up to you guys to keep going past the first burst of enthusiasm. We write the rules, we don't run contests and we don't call pilots and persuade them to show up. In any case, now we have created a club nationals too, just as we said we would. Given the dwindling enthusiasm shown for club regionals, the still low participation of club gliders at sports nationals, and the vexing problem of what to do with gliders like the sparrowhawk, which do not fit IGC club class, we included the lower performance gliders. One step at a time. We MUST ensure that the new class succeeds. If we create a class at nationals and 7 pilots show up and everybody gets sent home, that is the END of the class. If 17 pilots show up in the first burst of enthusiasm and then 7 show up the next year, this is the END of the class. We MUST make decisions based on data, not on theories (if you use IGC rules 50 pilots will come out of the woodwork and fly -- even though they're not on the seeding list) We will not repeat the world class fiasco. Are you listening? We're on your side here. This is our best attempt to create what you want, in a way that will be durable and successful. The use of SSA rules, and the US team upper limit for club class (ventus 1) has been in these US club class experiments all along. So, you guys got 95% of what you had been asking for: A separate class at nationals, following on the same model that was tried and demonstrated at regionals. All you had to do was suffer the indignity of letting a sparrowhawk or 1-34 tag along (there are usually 1-2 such gliders at sports nationals). We figured we'd be getting bouquets of flowers and boxes of chocolates. But no: Suddenly you demand that we use IGC rules and a different glider list, and send the sparrowhawhk home. Leaving aside the start, finish, scoring formulas, metric units, tiny turn radii, these rules impose completely different procedures. Quick, what are the IGC weight limits? Rules on modifications? Rules on use of fixed and disposable ballast? How many of your pilots know how to fly these rules? Doing this at a nationals without trying it at regionals would be insane. So, yes. If you want to completely change the concept of the class -- which IGC rules really is! -- that needs to be worked out at a regionals, not at a nationals, that is already sanctioned. The sanctioning process includes a check of things pilots expect like, is there a scorer and a CD who knows the rules they race is going to fly under! Sean has a theory that it's a 5 minute job with see you to use a different set of rules. He needs to talk to John Good and Ken Sorenson and find out about the months -- months -- it took to get rules and procedures worked out for Uvalde. I'm sorry for the irritated tone. But when we give you 95% of what you wanted, in the form that we had all been working on steadily for 5 years, and then suddenly the demands change radically at the last moment, ignoring all the previous work, ignoring all the practicalities of what it takes to run a contest, well, you can imagine it's a little irritating. John Cochrane ditto |
#80
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FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition
On a bus trip today. Will reply in more detail tomorrow.
Dont forget that 33 people have signed this FAI Club Class (US) petition. And they are not 33 slackers. Many of them are very accomplished pilots WHO OWN AND FLY Club Range gliders and have been asking for this class for years. Sean Petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...fb_connected=1 |
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