New Butterfly Vario

Hi,

The LX8000 and LX9000 use an AHRS sensor box with built in g-meters, etc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-AHRS

Paul Remde

"Mike" wrote in message
...
On Feb 14, 12:08 am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo...

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

Max

Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?

Mike wrote:
Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?

Not quite:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/mirror/LK...rawTRI.cpp#n18

The rendering code was rewritten to make it look more fancy (LK8000
uses only the calculated bank angle, but not the pitch angle). The
formula has never been changed in LK8000, it's still the old XCSoar 5
formula, which means it's still pretty unreliable, lacking real AHRS
input:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/mirror/LK...tions.cpp#n513

The XCSoar 6 formula has been improved to consider acceleration sensor
input (if available):

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...puter.cpp#n324

Not so much better, though. I'd say neither one is usable.

Max

On Feb 14, 2:28*pm, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote:
Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?

Not quite:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/mirror/LK...n/Source/Draw/....

The rendering code was rewritten to make it look more fancy (LK8000
uses only the calculated bank angle, but not the pitch angle). *The
formula has never been changed in LK8000, it's still the old XCSoar 5
formula, which means it's still pretty unreliable, lacking real AHRS
input:

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/mirror/LK...n/Source/Calc/....

The XCSoar 6 formula has been improved to consider acceleration sensor
input (if available):

*http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...omputer/BasicC....

Not so much better, though. *I'd say neither one is usable.

Max

Thanks Max

On Feb 14, 2:15*pm, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi,

The LX8000 and LX9000 use an AHRS sensor box with built in g-meters, etc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-AHRS

Paul Remde

"Mike" wrote in message

...
On Feb 14, 12:08 am, Max Kellermann wrote:







Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that.

Yes:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo...

The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment
says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits
on technology used by XCSoar)

This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the
OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a
real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly
announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few
soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer.

*Max

Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000?

Thanks for the explanation Paul. I meant LK8000. Pesky laptop
keyboards and poor detail to editing...

So does the new LX Zues...so will just about every instument, watch, smartphone that is built in the future. Any phone onboard during a contest that, once the cockpit door is closed, can download an app (yes i know this is crazy) is illegal. So it must be assumed that any contest pilot with a smattphone onboard of any fashion is cheating.

Its all just so silly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE0aO...e_gdata_player

2:20 into the video.

This is going to turn into a massive challenge to enforce...silly.

On the Android platform: https://market.android.com/details?i...ahorizon&hl=en

On the iPhone platform: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/airpl...385491648?mt=8

Any questions? How many US Contest Pilots cheated last year? I did! Yes, I am a cheater. Fess up everyone. Cheaters! ;-)

Any of us could EASILY download these apps once the canopy is closed and delete it before we open the door when we land.

This speaks nothing of the wealth of weather data we can all get from mobile phones.

Check.

This is going to turn into a massive challenge to enforce...silly.

My view on enforcement, etc.

We don't have detailed scrutineering now. We rely a lot on pilot
honesty.

Honesty is helped a lot by a feeling that everybody else isn't doing
it. Right now, US contest pilots don't cloud fly.

With that in mind, the rules really can't let you have a big honking
artificial horizon in the middle of the panel. And you can't have an
installed insturment that uses gyros and provides similar, serious,
cloud-flying ability. Not just might it tempt you, but its presence
might lead others to suspect that they have to cloud fly to keep up
with you.

Yes, it is theoretically possible to cloud fly using a GPS moving map,
or your iphone, or watching a pendulum. It's also possible to sneak
off on to other frequencies and team fly, or use your iphone to look
at the visible satellite loop, or sneak in walkie talkies to team fly.
If you do that, you're nuts, and you know you're cheating. There's no
prize money or groupies. There's also no paid staff of CDs and
scrutineers. For the moment at least, all these options are so
unreliable that it's really not worth putting in the enforcement
costs. Enforcement is, we just don't do stuff like this.

If you're thinking about cheating, think about the glory of winning
one contest vs. the lifelong shame of being caught cheating.


I think some of us need to get out and go flying before cabin fever
gets any worse. I know I do! Three "currency" flights in an ASK21
last weekend were the most fun I've had in months.

John Cochrane

On Feb 15, 12:56*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
This is going to turn into a massive challenge to enforce...silly.

My view on enforcement, etc.

We don't have detailed scrutineering now. We rely a lot on pilot
honesty.

Honesty is helped a lot by a feeling that everybody else isn't doing
it. Right now, US contest pilots don't cloud fly.

With that in mind, the rules really can't let you have a big honking
artificial horizon in the middle of the panel. And you can't have an
installed insturment that uses gyros and provides similar, serious,
cloud-flying ability. Not just might it tempt you, but its presence
might lead others to suspect that they have to cloud fly to keep up
with you.

Yes, it is theoretically possible to cloud fly using a GPS moving map,
or your iphone, or watching a pendulum. *It's also possible to sneak
off on to other frequencies and team fly, or use your iphone to look
at the visible satellite loop, or sneak in walkie talkies to team fly.
If you do that, you're nuts, and you know you're cheating. There's no
prize money or groupies. There's also no paid staff of CDs and
scrutineers. For the moment at least, all these options are so
unreliable that it's really not worth putting in the enforcement
costs. Enforcement is, we just don't do stuff like this.

If you're thinking about cheating, think about the glory of winning
one contest vs. the lifelong shame of being caught cheating.

I think some of us need to get out and go flying before cabin fever
gets any worse. I know I do! *Three "currency" flights in an ASK21
last weekend were the most fun I've had in months.

John Cochrane

Thanks for the common sense point of view John.

John,

I will be the first to admit that you are an extremely smart guy. I would not raise my hand to go up against you in Jeopardy any time soon. I greatly enjoy reading your outstanding soaring articles and have tremendous respect for your many insights within our sport.

I 100% agree that the honor system is the right way to proceed forward. Essentially that has been the case even with this rule historically in place and the recent reminder to the contest pilot community from the SSA Rules Committee. I believe that it would be much easier (and safer) for everyone, at this point, to simply allow everyone to install or keep any existing AH or T&B enabled instrument they currently fly (about 15 people I know flew with AH or T&B in various regional contests last year and were entirely unaware of the specifics of this rule). Let the honor system work.

I believe the vast majority of our soaring colleagues are extremely honest, would never willingly cheat for any reason and are primarily concerned with safe flight for themselves and their fellow pilots. As of right now we have butterfly (vario) removing their AH capability for the SSA rules committee, but 4-5 other instruments from various manufacturers (LK8000, XC Soar, Iphone, Andriod, LX8000, LX 9000, etc, etc) are going to need the same oversight. Its going to go on and on and on.

I think I have already proven that this rule is entirely unenforced, unenforceable and noneffective in general. Technology is going to move faster than our rules committee can follow. This is what is happening now and why there is so much debate today. If you really think about it (by definition of the current rule) almost every SSA competition pilot cheated for the past 2-3 years by having their GPS and accelerometer/gyro equipped iPhone or Android phone on board (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhon...ardown/3156/1).

If somebody really wants to cheat and cloud fly this season it could be done with more and more ease each season as new and improved electronics are released. It would not be hard to do now if someone really wanted to do it. The manufactures own customers are asking for the AH capability for safety reasons (very efficient and slick to integrate into the multi function displays of modern instruments) and the manufacturers want to deliver this value. The current AH/T&B ban rule creates are real conflict with innovation.. To spend all this effort disarming all and any upcoming instrument is going to be extremely difficult for pilots and committee members (all to prevent one yahoo from cheating whom the rule wont stop from doing so as it is currently enforced and written). It could also invite some extremely ugly protests, etc.

Sincerely,

Sean
F2