If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
I got lost a long way back in this thread, so please
re-educate me. The FAI sporting code sect 4.2 defines declaration requirements and says 'the last declaration made before takeoff is the only one valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different competition task is allowed.' Seems that your electronic declaration on the roll is the only one that counts. Also, to confuse me further, Annex C sect 4.5 illustrates multiple claims from a single declared flight. It seems to say a Diamond goal may be claimed between two declared turnpoints which are neither start nor finish, but elements in a more complicated course. In the given example, if I read it right, the 'goal' is not the finish point...perhaps I am not the only one confused here ? Should we call in the lawyers ? Ian At 15:24 10 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote: Mark Zivley wrote: But what do you store in your logger as your task? For 300k diamond goal you would need to have both the O&R and the finish point included. You can't have both points in the task for the state record 'goal'. It's not required that the declaration be in the logger, though that can be the most convenient at times. For a dual declaration, the easiest would be two paper ones, or perhaps one in the logger, one on paper. If you had two loggers, you could do it that way. -- Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Ian Cant wrote:
I got lost a long way back in this thread, so please re-educate me. The FAI sporting code sect 4.2 defines declaration requirements and says 'the last declaration made before takeoff is the only one valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different competition task is allowed.' Seems that your electronic declaration on the roll is the only one that counts. Only the most recent declaration is valid. The electronic declaration can be made well before the takeoff (even months), and can be superceded by a more recent declaration on paper. The paper one requires an official observer to be valid; the electronic one doesn't (at least for the recorders I am familier with). -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Mark Zivley wrote:
But what do you store in your logger as your task? For 300k diamond goal you would need to have both the O&R and the finish point included. You can't have both points in the task for the state record "goal". Use paper declarations instead an electronic declaration, or carry two loggers, one for the state record and one for the badge. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
At 03:12 09 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
you should be able to have two declarations, one for the SSA and one for the FAI. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but the FAI badge rules and SSA State record rules don't prohibit declarations that aren't for their purposes. Hmmmm. Don't bet the farm on it. State Record Rules follow FAI Sporting Code requirements for World Records, except as specifically amended for State Records. (State Record Rules are online on the SSA web page, under 'Badges & Records' at the 'forms' link.) I don't see an excption on the one-to-a-customer/last-one-before-t ake-off approach to declarations. Da Badge Lady |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
I would agree with the other posters here about only having one declaration. I
would be rather concerned (as an OO) if someone leafed through a bunch of declarations before handing me the 'right' one... However, my interpretation of the regulations for record/badge claims is this: You can claim as many 'performances' as you like from one flight, as long as they meet the criteria set down. You could declare a 1000Km triangle and if you took over 5hrs to complete it and gained 5000m on the way round, you could claim your Silver, Gold and Diamond badges plus the 1000Km Diploma. In terms of records, this is true as well. If you take a particular segment of the flight and it qualifies _in its own right_ for a soaring performance, then you can claim it. The only exception I can find is this: "3.0.2 Records in any one flight. Any record or records may be broken in any one flight for which the requirements are met, except that only one speed record may be certificated for a flight over a triangular or out and return course, the record being certificated for the record distance immediately less than the official distance of the flight." So I take that as meaning I could declare a 3-TP quadrilateral 500Km, and claim everything up to and including Diamond Distance (see SC-3 4.5). If I carried on in the same direction-ish, and landed much further away I could maybe claim a free distance record. I could also claim a 300Km triangle speed record and maybe even a 100Km goal record, if it complied with the 1000m rule and crossed a synthetic finish line/ FAI sector. And so on. I think there is confusion over the application of the terms START, FINISH & GOAL. I look at these in relative terms when considering a particular performance from a flight segment. I don't decide on what they are then fix this for all evidence related to that flight. For instance, it's well known you can claim Silver Distance from one leg of a triangle, provided you comply with the 1000m rule (assuming 100Km leg) or take the penalty. You also have to prove a valid start & finish - at least one of these will start off as a TP in the declaration and no-one seems to have a problem with that... |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Judy Ruprecht wrote:
At 03:12 09 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote: you should be able to have two declarations, one for the SSA and one for the FAI. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but the FAI badge rules and SSA State record rules don't prohibit declarations that aren't for their purposes. Hmmmm. Don't bet the farm on it. State Record Rules follow FAI Sporting Code requirements for World Records, except as specifically amended for State Records. (State Record Rules are online on the SSA web page, under 'Badges & Records' at the 'forms' link.) They do include FAI rules by reference, but USA State Records are not FAI records in any way, and the FAI has no control over them at all. I don't see an excption on the one-to-a-customer/last-one-before-t ake-off approach to declarations. Perhaps it's about what a "declaration" is: if it's on paper, the FAI OO has to sign it; if it's in the logger, the logger validates it, but the FAI OO has to verify the logger is on board glider during the flight. So, you can have a suitcase full of papers with all kinds of tasks on them, but none qualify as declarations because they aren't signed by the OO; similarly, you could carry several loggers, but if they aren't verified as "on board" by the FAI OO, they are irrelevant. I don't know of any restriction in the FAI rules on that suitcase full of tasks or carrying more than one logger. I think it's just a piece of paper until you point at it and say "that's the declaration for my FAI badge flight attempt", and that's what it becomes. If you point to another piece of paper and say "that's the declaration for my Washington state record flight attempt", you aren't making an FAI badge flight declaration. I see no reason to prohibit concurrent declarations for things like state records, club ladders, and so on. If the FAI rule about a single declaration was intended to prohibit declarations for all non-FAI flight purposes, they should explicitly state that, but as written, I think the ban only applies to declarations for FAI purposes. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
Judy Ruprecht wrote: At 03:12 09 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote: you should be able to have two declarations, one for the SSA and one for the FAI. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but the FAI badge rules and SSA State record rules don't prohibit declarations that aren't for their purposes. Hmmmm. Don't bet the farm on it. State Record Rules follow FAI Sporting Code requirements for World Records, except as specifically amended for State Records. (State Record Rules are online on the SSA web page, under 'Badges & Records' at the 'forms' link.) They do include FAI rules by reference, but USA State Records are not FAI records in any way, and the FAI has no control over them at all. The (USA) State record rules say "Except as provided by these rules, State Records shall comply with the FAI Sporting Code, Section 3 ("SC3") and to the additional requirements of Section 6.0 below." In the Sporting Code Section 3, Chapter 4.2.2 Declaration Validity, paragraph a. "The last declaration made before takeoff is the only one valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different competition task is allowed." So I don't see any way that more than one (valid) declaration can exist for a flight AND still comply with the Sporting Code. Either the one in the flight recorder is the last one made, or the paper one is the last one made. Maybe you can talk an OO into verifying a flight with two "valid" declarations, but I think it is not in the intention of the rules to do so. It ain't, well, sporting. Regards, John PS Volkslogger (and other?) flight recorder owners need to be aware that the Volkslogger will automatically declare the most recently stored declaration before each following flight, when power is turned on. If you declare on paper, then climb in the glider and take off, the last valid declaration will be in the flight recorder. You need to declare on paper, after you power up the Volkslogger. I don't see an excption on the one-to-a-customer/last-one-before-t ake-off approach to declarations. Perhaps it's about what a "declaration" is: if it's on paper, the FAI OO has to sign it; if it's in the logger, the logger validates it, but the FAI OO has to verify the logger is on board glider during the flight. So, you can have a suitcase full of papers with all kinds of tasks on them, but none qualify as declarations because they aren't signed by the OO; similarly, you could carry several loggers, but if they aren't verified as "on board" by the FAI OO, they are irrelevant. I don't know of any restriction in the FAI rules on that suitcase full of tasks or carrying more than one logger. I think it's just a piece of paper until you point at it and say "that's the declaration for my FAI badge flight attempt", and that's what it becomes. If you point to another piece of paper and say "that's the declaration for my Washington state record flight attempt", you aren't making an FAI badge flight declaration. I see no reason to prohibit concurrent declarations for things like state records, club ladders, and so on. If the FAI rule about a single declaration was intended to prohibit declarations for all non-FAI flight purposes, they should explicitly state that, but as written, I think the ban only applies to declarations for FAI purposes. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
In the case of the Colibri, the declaration is made
automatically when logging starts, which is when you reach forty knots or so on the takeoff roll. A little hard to make [and photograph ?] a paper declaration after that..? Ian At 07:48 15 October 2004, John Gilbert wrote: In the Sporting Code Section 3, Chapter 4.2.2 Declaration Validity, paragraph a. 'The last declaration made before takeoff is the only one valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different competition task is allowed.' So I don't see any way that more than one (valid) declaration can exist for a flight AND still comply with the Sporting Code. Either the one in the flight recorder is the last one made, or the paper one is the last one made. Maybe you can talk an OO into verifying a flight with two 'valid' declarations, but I think it is not in the intention of the rules to do so. It ain't, well, sporting. Regards, John PS Volkslogger (and other?) flight recorder owners need to be aware that the Volkslogger will automatically declare the most recently stored declaration before each following flight, when power is turned on. If you declare on paper, then climb in the glider and take off, the last valid declaration will be in the flight recorder. You need to declare on paper, after you power up the Volkslogger. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
It may be copied into the flight log, but I doubt the declaration time
is changed to the current time. The time of the declaration should be the time at which you pressed "save" when originally making it. If you then make several flights, all will have this same declaration time. -Tom (John Gilbert) wrote in message . com... PS Volkslogger (and other?) flight recorder owners need to be aware that the Volkslogger will automatically declare the most recently stored declaration before each following flight, when power is turned on. If you declare on paper, then climb in the glider and take off, the last valid declaration will be in the flight recorder. You need to declare on paper, after you power up the Volkslogger. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Todd, You are absolutely correct that the pilot, not the instrument, makes the declaration. Nevertheless, 'electronic declarations' do exist and are accepted by the FAI. And the content of a full declaration includes the date of flight, not just the date at which the pilot defined the task. Quoting from my Colibri manual 'the selected task is automatically declared after takeoff'. This declaration, even though it is implemented by the instrument, is acceptable for FAI purposes. So if it exists, it is the latest declaration. Agreed, the pilot may make paper declarations after entering the FR task but before the flight, but if he wants to make the paper declaration valid it is his responsibility to deselect or disable the electronic one prior to takeoff. And since the FR data is required to document the flight, it is hard to pretend that any associated electronic declaration does not exist. I guess that if someone really wanted to flex the spirit of the rules, he could carry a sheaf of paper declarations and have several FRs running, then decide after takeoff which one he wanted to use today - then the latest declaration would be the one in the pilot's head as he started his task, or maybe what he recalled postflight as his last pre-start intention ?? Soaring season must be winding down. Ian At 23:06 15 October 2004, Todd Pattist wrote: Ian Cant wrote: In the case of the Colibri, the declaration is made automatically when logging starts, which is when you reach forty knots or so on the takeoff roll. A little hard to make [and photograph ?] a paper declaration after that..? Ian Only a pilot can make a declaration, not a Colibri. The declaration was made when the pilot entered data into the Colibri. That declaration could be superseded by a subsequent paper or electronic declaration, regardless of what the Colibri does at 'forty knots or so on the takeoff roll.' :-) Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.) |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Run up for plug clearing | Roger Long | Piloting | 78 | October 18th 04 03:39 AM |
FAI Sporting Code Section 3 experts wanted | Stewart Kissel | Soaring | 28 | September 1st 04 05:58 PM |
For Keith Willshaw... | robert arndt | Military Aviation | 253 | July 6th 04 05:18 AM |
Winscore source code now available | Guy Byars | Soaring | 0 | February 5th 04 10:43 AM |
Need Help with Northstar M1 Loran | Jerald Malin | Owning | 4 | December 8th 03 05:38 PM |