inverted Schweizer towhook

Sorry I was asking the other guy. Where in AC 43.13-2B does it say you shall use the field approval process to invert a Schweizer hook?

"First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"

Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.



If you filed a 337, you must be considering this a major alteration and you said you filed it without a field approval. So I'm curious, what approval did you use to invert the hitch?
I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.
Perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it.
Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?

"First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"

Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.



You must be considering this a major alteration because you said a 337 is required. You then said a field approval is not required, but some kind of approval is required and should be documented on the 337.
So I'm curious, what approval would you use to invert the hitch?
I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.

Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?

Tell you what why don’t we agree to disagree. Putting a Schweizer tow hitch on inverted or otherwise is a stupid idea anyway.

On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 7:01:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
"First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"

Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.



You must be considering this a major alteration because you said a 337 is required. You then said a field approval is not required, but some kind of approval is required and should be documented on the 337.
So I'm curious, what approval would you use to invert the hitch?
I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.

Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?



JJD, I see that AC 43-13-2B Fig 8-4 and FAA-H-8083-13A (Glider Flying Handbook) fig 12-4 both show photographs of Schweizer hitches installed inverted. Would this constitute approval?

On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 11:59:28 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
Tell you what why don’t we agree to disagree. Putting a Schweizer tow hitch on inverted or otherwise is a stupid idea anyway.

Once again, I remind you guys that some tow planes are only permitted to use a Schweizer release, and changing to a TOST, while desirable, may entail substantial paperwork and approvals by the FAA.

If anybody has a list of tow planes that are approved for TOST releases, that would be helpful to folks who MAY have a Schweizer hook and want to change over.

On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 12:01:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 7:01:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
"First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"

Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.



You must be considering this a major alteration because you said a 337 is required. You then said a field approval is not required, but some kind of approval is required and should be documented on the 337.
So I'm curious, what approval would you use to invert the hitch?
I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.

Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?



JJD, I see that AC 43-13-2B Fig 8-4 and FAA-H-8083-13A (Glider Flying Handbook) fig 12-4 both show photographs of Schweizer hitches installed inverted. Would this constitute approval?

To make it clear, I'm asking about a Pawnee that already has a Schweizer hook installed.....what paperwork will it take to invert it?

Sigh... OK here’s another AC to peruse https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...AC_43-210A.pdf

Here’s some fun facts. Is any part of AC 43.13 considered approved data by the FAA? Well no it’s considered acceptable data. How does it become approved data you ask? Your local very friendly A&P/IA will determine it applies to the repair/alteration being considered and put the chapter, page and paragraph in block 8 of FAA form 337. Note this is not a field approval.

Happy to help!

"JJD, I see that AC 43-13-2B Fig 8-4 and FAA-H-8083-13A (Glider Flying Handbook) fig 12-4 both show photographs of Schweizer hitches installed inverted. Would this constitute approval?"

Fig 8-4 does show it upside down.... on a tricycle gear aircraft.
For all taildragers it indicates the hitch to be upright.
So I would not consider a installation to be compliant with 43.13 if installed inverted on a Pawnee.
In my opinion, 43.13 would not be acceptable or approved data for the inverted install of a hith on a Pawnee.

The glider flying handbook would not be good data for making any modifications to a Pawnee.

I agree 100 % that 43.13 can be approved data for a major repair or alteration. But.. it must fit the situation in question.
So if you've converted your Pawnee to a trike, all is well.
If not, you are noncompliant with 43.13.

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 5:45:07 AM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:55:38 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?

Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.

The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.

What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?

Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.

Tom

Sadly, No TSO approved, available, reliable, effective and affordable KGARS
Exist.
Scott

Today, yes. Tomorrow, we'll see.

Tom