flaps again

On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a
big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap
was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he
had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and
then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in
flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the
flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Dec 31 2007, 2:39*pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

* *Not flapless.

I had to.

Even if you don't have to demonstrate it, you ought to have been
trained in how to do it.

I was wondering: in the aircraft of the OP, do the flaps not make a
noise when deploying? After reading the post, I realized that I have
typically relied on three things to know the flaps are down: the sound
of them deploying, the change in pitch that comes with flap
deployment, and, as I get out toward turning base, I'm looking back to
check my position in relation to the numbers. When I do that I see the
flaps down.

That should also work with most low wings, no? I guess there might be
some flap designs where you couldn't see that on small GA aircraft.

Thanks for the post as it makes me realize I have not paid enough
attention to this critical operation. Since flaps have always deployed
when I asked them to, I haven't thought about double checking. Far
from calling the OP guy a moron, I got to thank him for raising my
awareness on this.

Piloting is complex, and as Bertie points out, we all f0k up. On my
checkride what the examiner was looking for was: identify the error
and correct.

In rec.aviation.student C J Campbell wrote:
OTOH, people do manage to turn non-emergencies into emergencies. Every
now and then you hear of someone who smashes up a perfectly flyable
airplane simply because they managed to spear a June bug with the pitot
tube, or a door popped open in flight, or something minor like that.

I recall an unfortunate incident in which a poorly-placed water bag had
somewhat reduced my right aileron authority, and I thought I could get it
out of the way in the middle of the takeoff. The aircraft quickly
disabused me of this notion, and I recovered without breaking anything,
but it made for an embarrassing show. (Why is it that you can be
absolutely certain that someone is watching when you screw it up, and
absolutely certain that nobody was around to see it when you make a
greaser landing?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

"Michael Ash" wrote in message
...

I recall an unfortunate incident in which a poorly-placed water bag had
somewhat reduced my right aileron authority, and I thought I could get it
out of the way in the middle of the takeoff. The aircraft quickly
disabused me of this notion, and I recovered without breaking anything,
but it made for an embarrassing show. (Why is it that you can be
absolutely certain that someone is watching when you screw it up, and
absolutely certain that nobody was around to see it when you make a
greaser landing?


It usually has nothing to do with what the actually see, and everything to
do with what they choose to recall.

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in
a big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap was
folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he
had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and
then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in flight.
It appears that the student made three more landings after the flap
folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way that
the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in his
airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it is.
Unbelievable!! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 14:08:09 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which
would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have had several flap
failures in a Cessna 172. It never seemed like an emergency to me -- at
most, an annoyance.

One thing I do when the flaps fail is check to see if my radios are
still working, just to make sure I don't have a power failure.

We sat and watched two guys land a transient 172 one day each one
pushing out the door on his side of the airplane on final.
We asked them why they were doing this and they said the flap motor was
broken and they wanted to fly that day. They were using the doors as a
speed brake. :-))


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques writes:

Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH
might define a no flap landing as an emergency.

I recall a Usenet post from a crew member in a Buff that, while over
Illinois, lost hydraulics for both flaps and brakes. Ooops.

They got a refill and made it to Edwards lake bed before dark.
They coasted a long time before stopping...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Jan 4, 6:17 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 14:08:09 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which
would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have had several flap
failures in a Cessna 172. It never seemed like an emergency to me -- at
most, an annoyance.

One thing I do when the flaps fail is check to see if my radios are
still working, just to make sure I don't have a power failure.

We sat and watched two guys land a transient 172 one day each one
pushing out the door on his side of the airplane on final.
We asked them why they were doing this and they said the flap motor was
broken and they wanted to fly that day. They were using the doors as a
speed brake. :-))


Sounds like a reasonable idea -if one thinks an extra 10k landing
speed is going to be a BIG problem for the field. On the other hand,
I'd be worried anout the disrupted airflow over the elevator. What do
you think?

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote:
On Jan 4, 6:17 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 14:08:09 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which
would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.
Exactly!
Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))
Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have had several flap
failures in a Cessna 172. It never seemed like an emergency to me -- at
most, an annoyance.
One thing I do when the flaps fail is check to see if my radios are
still working, just to make sure I don't have a power failure.
We sat and watched two guys land a transient 172 one day each one
pushing out the door on his side of the airplane on final.
We asked them why they were doing this and they said the flap motor was
broken and they wanted to fly that day. They were using the doors as a
speed brake. :-))


Sounds like a reasonable idea -if one thinks an extra 10k landing
speed is going to be a BIG problem for the field. On the other hand,
I'd be worried anout the disrupted airflow over the elevator. What do
you think?

Cheers

This was the gist of the discussion at the flight office that afternoon.
The doors are indeed inline and this could indeed cause a problem.
Needless to say we mentioned it to them before they left to go home.
I think we "sold them" when we pointed out that both runways...ours and
theirs....were more than long enough for no flap landings without all
the additional fuss associated with the doors :-))


--
Dudley Henriques

In rec.aviation.student Maxwell wrote:
"Michael Ash" wrote in message
...

I recall an unfortunate incident in which a poorly-placed water bag had
somewhat reduced my right aileron authority, and I thought I could get it
out of the way in the middle of the takeoff. The aircraft quickly
disabused me of this notion, and I recovered without breaking anything,
but it made for an embarrassing show. (Why is it that you can be
absolutely certain that someone is watching when you screw it up, and
absolutely certain that nobody was around to see it when you make a
greaser landing?

It usually has nothing to do with what the actually see, and everything to
do with what they choose to recall.

No doubt.

There's an amusing ending to this as well. I had thought nobody noticed
it, since nobody said anything, until I got in the car with my friend to
go home. We started talking about our respective days at the airport and
he said, "Did you see that one guy on takeoff...?" I had to shamefacedly
admit that "that one guy" was actually me.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software