High time airframe question

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On Jul 19, 6:55 am, Mike Spera wrote:
If these cracks are caught by your mechanic, they won't kill
you but they'll kill your bank account. If we have a choice between a
"well-maintained" (yeah, right) older high-timer and one that has sat
for years, I'll take the sitter as long as it doesn't have corrosion
issues (humidity, salt air, or non-human residents). Both airplanes
will need new engines and interiors and other plastic and rubber bits
replaced. The high-timer will need structural repairs, maybe a lot of
them. They're not cheap. By the time you're done you could have far
more tied up in the airplane than it would ever be worth in resale
value.

There may be some dud A&Ps out there, but there's also a lot of great ones
that have extensive knowledge of older aircraft. Just because an aircraft
is high time doesn't mean it WILL require structural repairs, and even if
they do, not all such repairs are expensive as some can be addressed by stop
drilling or other solutions. Just because the aircraft is high time,
doesn't mean it WILL need a new engine. In fact, it's less likely to need
one. An older aircraft that's sat for several years or has never had an
overhaul WILL need one as well as a new interior and probably new glass,
whereas the high time aircraft stands a good chance of having things like
interior and glass replaced at some point and definitely has had the engine
reworked or replaced. Everything really boils down to a proper pre-buy from
a knowledgeable mechanic which is just as important regardless of how much
time the airframe has.

At 9,000 hrs, I would definitely consider my airplane high time, but it's
still going strong and there's the same type out there still going strong
with twice that many hours. Since I fly the thing only about 200 hrs per
year, it's going to take 10 years just to get 2,000 more hours assuming I
still have it by then. Since I'm confident my aircraft is structurally
sound, the chances of it needing a significant structural repair are pretty
much the same as a low time aircraft.

Morgans wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote

Sniffers? The patrol plane that flew our lines uses a Mark One eyeball.

What type of lines? Buried or surface?


Around South Arkansas Buried... No Sniffers.

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
Morgans wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote

Sniffers? The patrol plane that flew our lines uses a Mark One eyeball.

What type of lines? Buried or surface?


Around South Arkansas Buried... No Sniffers.


It is a one in a million chance a pipeline pilot finds a leak before the
company knows about it. The break would have to happen just as the
pilot gets there as the company has pressure gauges on the line. The
pilot is really looking for things that are happening on the right of way.

On Jul 22, 7:27 am, Newps wrote:

It is a one in a million chance a pipeline pilot finds a leak before the
company knows about it. The break would have to happen just as the
pilot gets there as the company has pressure gauges on the line. The
pilot is really looking for things that are happening on the right of way.

If it's a small leak the company might not notice. Gas will
kill vegetation, oil will show as a stain. But as you said, those
pilots are mostly looking for people digging where they're not
supposed to be. There was an incident here few years ago where the
pilot found a farmer digging a ditch with a backhoe right over the
line, so he buzzed the farmer until the guy jumped off the machine.
The farmer was furious until the pipeline guys got there and showed
him that his hoe was within inches of striking the gas line and could
have immolated himself.

Dan

Newps writes:



It is a one in a million chance a pipeline pilot finds a leak before the
company knows about it. The break would have to happen just as the
pilot gets there as the company has pressure gauges on the line. The
pilot is really looking for things that are happening on the right of way.

Our pilot had found leaks, but you are correct; he's looking for digging.

Once he called in while someone was running a pan (scraper) near the
line. The line foreman took off that way, but got there right after the
operator had scraped the pipe bare. One more pass and he'd have.....
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Newps wrote:
Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
Morgans wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote

Sniffers? The patrol plane that flew our lines uses a Mark One eyeball.

What type of lines? Buried or surface?


Around South Arkansas Buried... No Sniffers.


It is a one in a million chance a pipeline pilot finds a leak before the
company knows about it. The break would have to happen just as the
pilot gets there as the company has pressure gauges on the line. The
pilot is really looking for things that are happening on the right of way.

One in a million is a little high. But you are right that they are
mainly looking for other things happening on the right of way.

Of the two based here one is employed by a refinery. The other is an
independent and does contract work for different companies. A few years
ago after a rash of tree poaching that went own around here he just
about doubled is income by contracting with forest land owners to check
on there timber from the air. Last count is he has caught about 20
people stealing timber.

Just as a point of interest these two pipeline patrol pilots do often
meet up in the air. A long while back they decided that one would fly at
400' AGL and the other would do 500'.

Twice now we have had planes go down locally that CAP couldn't find as
they flew their 1000' AGL search patterns. Both times the 400' guy has
finally come in and found the planes within an hour and one of those
times in under 15 minutes. The 15 minute search was after CAP had been
looking for about 2 days and was dead center in the middle of the search
grid.

These guys really are an asset to the community they both have police
band radios in their planes and become the eyes in the sky for local and
county police on a regular basis.

On Jul 17, 2:42*pm, xyzzy wrote:
Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? * My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.

As others have said maintenance is more important than total time
unless that time was spent down low with aggressive flying like
pipeline or fire patrol. The FAA was about to issue an AD against all
PA-28s a couple of years ago and was only dissuaded when the alphabet
groups pointed out the only PA-28s to suffer inflight breakups were
patrolers or poorly maintained. (i.e. missing wing attach bolts)

For CAR 3 certified aircraft there is no time limit on the airframe.
For FAR 23 aircraft there is usually a wing spar limit i.e. the
Tomahawk and Skipper.

The local flight school has several PA 28s with over 9000 hours and a
couple with more. They point out to me areas of cracking etc. that I
have never seen on the low time Cherokees I typically work on. Get a
prepurchase inspection by someone really knowledgeable in older
Cherokees.

John Dupre'

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:


Just as a point of interest these two pipeline patrol pilots do often
meet up in the air. A long while back they decided that one would fly at
400' AGL and the other would do 500'.

You have to get a waiver to fly a 500 foot altitude at all times. They
don't give waivers for less than that so the 400 foot guy was busting
the reg for traffic purposes.

Newps wrote:
Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:


Just as a point of interest these two pipeline patrol pilots do often
meet up in the air. A long while back they decided that one would fly
at 400' AGL and the other would do 500'.

You have to get a waiver to fly a 500 foot altitude at all times. They
don't give waivers for less than that so the 400 foot guy was busting
the reg for traffic purposes.




The numbers may be 500 and 600. It's been a while since I talked to them
about it. The memory comes and goes from time to time.

wrote:
On Jul 22, 7:27 am, Newps wrote:

It is a one in a million chance a pipeline pilot finds a leak before the
company knows about it. The break would have to happen just as the
pilot gets there as the company has pressure gauges on the line. The
pilot is really looking for things that are happening on the right of way.

If it's a small leak the company might not notice. Gas will
kill vegetation, oil will show as a stain. But as you said, those
pilots are mostly looking for people digging where they're not
supposed to be. There was an incident here few years ago where the
pilot found a farmer digging a ditch with a backhoe right over the
line, so he buzzed the farmer until the guy jumped off the machine.
The farmer was furious until the pipeline guys got there and showed
him that his hoe was within inches of striking the gas line and could
have immolated himself.

Or even worse, he could have burnt himself to a crisp! :-)

Actually, most gas transmission pipelines (I don't think many small
distribution lines are patrolled by aircraft) are unlikely to be
seriously damaged by the size backhoe that a typical farmer would be
using. They are generally made from fairly heavy-walled steel or poly
and I'd be impressed if your run of the mill backhoe would penetrate one.

Now a 2-4" poly distribution line is a different animal...

Matt