Video on contest safety

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 6:27:42 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On blue/ difficult days, which we have alot of, no matter what you do to spread out the start I guarantee you on the first leg everyone is going to get together and gaggle up.
The first guys to lead out are going to get caught from behind, and when the new gaggle gets stuck for a few minutes trying to get up more are more that are going to dogpile in there. Rinse and repeat.

I was surprised with this gaggle concern that completion pilots voted for the adoption of the IGC rule package which clearly promotes gaggle flying to be successful.

Out of the what 350+ Pilots who are on the US Competition ranking, how many are going to any world meet? Very few. For The rest of us to have to fly the IGC rule package that really promotes gaggle flying?
I understand the argument that US pilots need to fly by the rules that the rest of the world flys by to help them be successful in world competition.
But that really shoots a hole in any plans to alleviate the current USA gaggle concerns so many seem to be up in arms about.
But I personally think this gaggle problem is going away by its self, and as Chip pointed out contests on a whole are getting smaller and smaller, before we know it is going to come down to Mike Marshall and Daniel Szahin, there going to be the only ones left soon enough.
Don't crash & pick up your trash [Bruno]
Nick
T

Here are a few uninformed ideas after reading this whole thread: It sounds like the biggest problem with gaggles is the shear number of gliders in the gaggles. So, taking steps to reduce that number would be the way to go.. In the US with declining numbers of pilots racing, eventually this will be a non-issue. However, while there are still 60+ pilots entered at a contest, a few ideas come to mind. Many contests seem to involve multiple classes. Why not set a different task, with a different starting area for each class? This would thin out the starting gaggle considerably. If this isn't enough, then limit the entrants to each class to say 8 to 12 entries, or whatever arbitrary number the CD feels would be a "safe" number of pilots to have in a gaggle at the start.

Or, you could have the same task set, but have different start times, separated by a significant enough length of time, that the first class to launch would all be started before the next class launches. This would require the starting gate to be open for a set time, and everyone would need to start during that window though.

These measures would help to reduce the "congestion" at the start of the task.

Just my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.

What you describe is established common practice.
UH

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 4:41:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 6:27:42 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On blue/ difficult days, which we have alot of, no matter what you do to spread out the start I guarantee you on the first leg everyone is going to get together and gaggle up.
The first guys to lead out are going to get caught from behind, and when the new gaggle gets stuck for a few minutes trying to get up more are more that are going to dogpile in there. Rinse and repeat.

I was surprised with this gaggle concern that completion pilots voted for the adoption of the IGC rule package which clearly promotes gaggle flying to be successful.

Out of the what 350+ Pilots who are on the US Competition ranking, how many are going to any world meet? Very few. For The rest of us to have to fly the IGC rule package that really promotes gaggle flying?
I understand the argument that US pilots need to fly by the rules that the rest of the world flys by to help them be successful in world competition.
But that really shoots a hole in any plans to alleviate the current USA gaggle concerns so many seem to be up in arms about.
But I personally think this gaggle problem is going away by its self, and as Chip pointed out contests on a whole are getting smaller and smaller, before we know it is going to come down to Mike Marshall and Daniel Szahin, there going to be the only ones left soon enough.
Don't crash & pick up your trash [Bruno]
Nick
T

Here are a few uninformed ideas after reading this whole thread: It sounds like the biggest problem with gaggles is the shear number of gliders in the gaggles. So, taking steps to reduce that number would be the way to go. In the US with declining numbers of pilots racing, eventually this will be a non-issue. However, while there are still 60+ pilots entered at a contest, a few ideas come to mind. Many contests seem to involve multiple classes. Why not set a different task, with a different starting area for each class? This would thin out the starting gaggle considerably. If this isn't enough, then limit the entrants to each class to say 8 to 12 entries, or whatever arbitrary number the CD feels would be a "safe" number of pilots to have in a gaggle at the start.

Or, you could have the same task set, but have different start times, separated by a significant enough length of time, that the first class to launch would all be started before the next class launches. This would require the starting gate to be open for a set time, and everyone would need to start during that window though.

These measures would help to reduce the "congestion" at the start of the task.

Just my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.

What you describe is established common practice.
UH

Does it not work then?

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 4:27:42 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On blue/ difficult days, which we have alot of, no matter what you do to spread out the start I guarantee you on the first leg everyone is going to get together and gaggle up.
The first guys to lead out are going to get caught from behind, and when the new gaggle gets stuck for a few minutes trying to get up more are more that are going to dogpile in there. Rinse and repeat.

I was surprised with this gaggle concern that completion pilots voted for the adoption of the IGC rule package which clearly promotes gaggle flying to be successful.

Out of the what 350+ Pilots who are on the US Competition ranking, how many are going to any world meet? Very few. For The rest of us to have to fly the IGC rule package that really promotes gaggle flying?
I understand the argument that US pilots need to fly by the rules that the rest of the world flys by to help them be successful in world competition.
But that really shoots a hole in any plans to alleviate the current USA gaggle concerns so many seem to be up in arms about.
But I personally think this gaggle problem is going away by its self, and as Chip pointed out contests on a whole are getting smaller and smaller, before we know it is going to come down to Mike Marshall and Daniel Szahin, there going to be the only ones left soon enough.
Don't crash & pick up your trash [Bruno]
Nick
T

Here are a few uninformed ideas after reading this whole thread: It sounds like the biggest problem with gaggles is the shear number of gliders in the gaggles. So, taking steps to reduce that number would be the way to go.. In the US with declining numbers of pilots racing, eventually this will be a non-issue. However, while there are still 60+ pilots entered at a contest, a few ideas come to mind. Many contests seem to involve multiple classes. Why not set a different task, with a different starting area for each class? This would thin out the starting gaggle considerably. If this isn't enough, then limit the entrants to each class to say 8 to 12 entries, or whatever arbitrary number the CD feels would be a "safe" number of pilots to have in a gaggle at the start.

Or, you could have the same task set, but have different start times, separated by a significant enough length of time, that the first class to launch would all be started before the next class launches. This would require the starting gate to be open for a set time, and everyone would need to start during that window though.

These measures would help to reduce the "congestion" at the start of the task.

Just my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.

I am not a competition pilot, but what you suggest is already in practice. I see contest reports that refer to different classes starting from different points and at different times (and flying different tasks). It appears (to me, anyway) that one of the biggest problems is pre-start gaggle, where everybody launches and grinds around in a herd, waiting for the start gate and disregarding whether everybody in the thermal has flaps or not, 15 meters or 18 meters. Everybody is looking for the easiest way to stay up before heading out to the designated start point at their designated time.

Up until then, it's a Charlie Foxtrot situation.

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 7:32:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 4:27:42 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On blue/ difficult days, which we have alot of, no matter what you do to spread out the start I guarantee you on the first leg everyone is going to get together and gaggle up.
The first guys to lead out are going to get caught from behind, and when the new gaggle gets stuck for a few minutes trying to get up more are more that are going to dogpile in there. Rinse and repeat.

I was surprised with this gaggle concern that completion pilots voted for the adoption of the IGC rule package which clearly promotes gaggle flying to be successful.

Out of the what 350+ Pilots who are on the US Competition ranking, how many are going to any world meet? Very few. For The rest of us to have to fly the IGC rule package that really promotes gaggle flying?
I understand the argument that US pilots need to fly by the rules that the rest of the world flys by to help them be successful in world competition.
But that really shoots a hole in any plans to alleviate the current USA gaggle concerns so many seem to be up in arms about.
But I personally think this gaggle problem is going away by its self, and as Chip pointed out contests on a whole are getting smaller and smaller, before we know it is going to come down to Mike Marshall and Daniel Szahin, there going to be the only ones left soon enough.
Don't crash & pick up your trash [Bruno]
Nick
T

Here are a few uninformed ideas after reading this whole thread: It sounds like the biggest problem with gaggles is the shear number of gliders in the gaggles. So, taking steps to reduce that number would be the way to go. In the US with declining numbers of pilots racing, eventually this will be a non-issue. However, while there are still 60+ pilots entered at a contest, a few ideas come to mind. Many contests seem to involve multiple classes. Why not set a different task, with a different starting area for each class? This would thin out the starting gaggle considerably. If this isn't enough, then limit the entrants to each class to say 8 to 12 entries, or whatever arbitrary number the CD feels would be a "safe" number of pilots to have in a gaggle at the start.

Or, you could have the same task set, but have different start times, separated by a significant enough length of time, that the first class to launch would all be started before the next class launches. This would require the starting gate to be open for a set time, and everyone would need to start during that window though.

These measures would help to reduce the "congestion" at the start of the task.

Just my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.

I am not a competition pilot, but what you suggest is already in practice.. I see contest reports that refer to different classes starting from different points and at different times (and flying different tasks). It appears (to me, anyway) that one of the biggest problems is pre-start gaggle, where everybody launches and grinds around in a herd, waiting for the start gate and disregarding whether everybody in the thermal has flaps or not, 15 meters or 18 meters. Everybody is looking for the easiest way to stay up before heading out to the designated start point at their designated time.

Up until then, it's a Charlie Foxtrot situation.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough then. The whole point of what I suggested was to keep one class only in a gaggle before the start. So that would mean that the starting gaggle for the 15m class would be in a location near the start gate for the 15m task, compared to the 18m gaggle for the 18m task which starts at a different location. The start gates would be distant enough from each other that it would be impractical for both classes to be gaggling together before the start in the same thermal. These can also be separated by time, so that the start gate for one class closes before the next class even launches. One could also even limit the number of class entrants which if these measures implemented, would limit the size of the gaggle to the size of the class. But what do I know? I'm not a contest pilot--yet.

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:25:28 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 7:32:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 4:27:42 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:21:26 AM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On blue/ difficult days, which we have alot of, no matter what you do to spread out the start I guarantee you on the first leg everyone is going to get together and gaggle up.
The first guys to lead out are going to get caught from behind, and when the new gaggle gets stuck for a few minutes trying to get up more are more that are going to dogpile in there. Rinse and repeat.

I was surprised with this gaggle concern that completion pilots voted for the adoption of the IGC rule package which clearly promotes gaggle flying to be successful.

Out of the what 350+ Pilots who are on the US Competition ranking, how many are going to any world meet? Very few. For The rest of us to have to fly the IGC rule package that really promotes gaggle flying?
I understand the argument that US pilots need to fly by the rules that the rest of the world flys by to help them be successful in world competition.
But that really shoots a hole in any plans to alleviate the current USA gaggle concerns so many seem to be up in arms about.
But I personally think this gaggle problem is going away by its self, and as Chip pointed out contests on a whole are getting smaller and smaller, before we know it is going to come down to Mike Marshall and Daniel Szahin, there going to be the only ones left soon enough.
Don't crash & pick up your trash [Bruno]
Nick
T

Here are a few uninformed ideas after reading this whole thread: It sounds like the biggest problem with gaggles is the shear number of gliders in the gaggles. So, taking steps to reduce that number would be the way to go. In the US with declining numbers of pilots racing, eventually this will be a non-issue. However, while there are still 60+ pilots entered at a contest, a few ideas come to mind. Many contests seem to involve multiple classes. Why not set a different task, with a different starting area for each class? This would thin out the starting gaggle considerably. If this isn't enough, then limit the entrants to each class to say 8 to 12 entries, or whatever arbitrary number the CD feels would be a "safe" number of pilots to have in a gaggle at the start.

Or, you could have the same task set, but have different start times, separated by a significant enough length of time, that the first class to launch would all be started before the next class launches. This would require the starting gate to be open for a set time, and everyone would need to start during that window though.

These measures would help to reduce the "congestion" at the start of the task.

Just my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.

I am not a competition pilot, but what you suggest is already in practice. I see contest reports that refer to different classes starting from different points and at different times (and flying different tasks). It appears (to me, anyway) that one of the biggest problems is pre-start gaggle, where everybody launches and grinds around in a herd, waiting for the start gate and disregarding whether everybody in the thermal has flaps or not, 15 meters or 18 meters. Everybody is looking for the easiest way to stay up before heading out to the designated start point at their designated time.

Up until then, it's a Charlie Foxtrot situation.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough then. The whole point of what I suggested was to keep one class only in a gaggle before the start. So that would mean that the starting gaggle for the 15m class would be in a location near the start gate for the 15m task, compared to the 18m gaggle for the 18m task which starts at a different location. The start gates would be distant enough from each other that it would be impractical for both classes to be gaggling together before the start in the same thermal. These can also be separated by time, so that the start gate for one class closes before the next class even launches. One could also even limit the number of class entrants which if these measures implemented, would limit the size of the gaggle to the size of the class. But what do I know? I'm not a contest pilot--yet.

I'll repeat myself. That is what is done today in the US. We use different start cylinders for each class to reduce congestion. The video shows the start commonly used in much of the rest of the world under IGC, or similar, rules.
In that start, everyone waits behind the line hoping to go last.
When using multiple classes, they use different starts.
The existing US cylinder start, with the ability to start out the top, provides a somewhat greater opportunity for someone to break away on the start if they wish to. That said, on a weak blue day, the smart thing to do is stay with the group for a more predictable result.
UH