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Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 19th 18, 05:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

Sounds like submitting a "bug fix" to your MFR.
While they can think of lots of things, sometimes users bring up a worthwhile suggestion/fix.

Taken from a "beta boy" (field service) for a company. Service tried out things, we made suggestions to the programmer, sometimes we had to "prove a need", but he was great to work with.

YMMV.......
  #22  
Old March 19th 18, 05:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

I wired my Flarm with double pole, 3 position switch. The first pole powers the brick and the second pole powers the Flarmview display. In the middle position, the PowerFlarm Core is on, but the display is off. In the full up position both are On. This allows me to kill the display without turning off my Flarm which provides Flarm visibility to others.

Mark
  #23  
Old March 19th 18, 09:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 11:26:16 AM UTC-5, Dirk_PW wrote:
I'm having a similar problem with just a mode-c transponder in the towplane. I'm not getting a 'collision' warning per se, but the S80 does indicate a xpndr equipped aircraft is in close proximity. The issue with this is that the display is simply locked out from all other functions during the entire tow. That is, there is no way to get your vario display back until after the tow and the aircraft exceeds the threat threshold. This 'problem' also occurs when flying close to xpdr equipped gliders. I had caught up to a friend that had a mode-c xpdr and we flew together for over an hour. During the whole time, the S80 displayed the xpdr traffic page and I couldn't navigate past it to see any other pages. I had to ask my friend to turn off his transponder while we were flying together. It would be nice if the instrument had an "acknowledge" feature where I could suppress the alert for some configurable period of time so I can get access to the rest of the vario features (similar to the way modern computers handle airspace warnings). I want to tell the computer... "I see the traffic, now go away for 5 minutes", but I don't want to turn it off permanently, however for obvious reasons.

Has anyone else experienced this and have a solution?


The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.
  #24  
Old March 19th 18, 10:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 10:26:16 AM UTC-6, Dirk_PW wrote:
I'm having a similar problem with just a mode-c transponder in the towplane. I'm not getting a 'collision' warning per se, but the S80 does indicate a xpndr equipped aircraft is in close proximity. The issue with this is that the display is simply locked out from all other functions during the entire tow. That is, there is no way to get your vario display back until after the tow and the aircraft exceeds the threat threshold. This 'problem' also occurs when flying close to xpdr equipped gliders. I had caught up to a friend that had a mode-c xpdr and we flew together for over an hour. During the whole time, the S80 displayed the xpdr traffic page and I couldn't navigate past it to see any other pages. I had to ask my friend to turn off his transponder while we were flying together. It would be nice if the instrument had an "acknowledge" feature where I could suppress the alert for some configurable period of time so I can get access to the rest of the vario features (similar to the way modern computers handle airspace warnings). I want to tell the computer... "I see the traffic, now go away for 5 minutes", but I don't want to turn it off permanently, however for obvious reasons.

Has anyone else experienced this and have a solution?


I like the idea of an "acknowledge" feature similar to airspace warnings on the LXNav S80. I've sent LXNav a comment on this problem with ADS-B out. Let see what they say... I'm also using the Flarm as my GPS source to the S80 and Oudie, so turning it off during tow is not a good option for me.
  #25  
Old March 20th 18, 03:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:52:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.


Actually, no; as Dan has pointed out, when aircraft are in formation (which is a specific case - not just a bunch of aircraft in the same area, like a gaggle), only the flight lead is supposed to have his transponder on; the rest are supposed to be in standby. In pre-Mode S days this was essential as multiple Mode 3s responding in the same area at the same time would overwhelm the SSR system at worst and trigger all sorts of collision alarms at best.

When the formation breaks up, the wingmen are then supposed to turn on their transponders. Releasing from tow is breaking up the tow formation, so...

This applies to all military and civilian formation flights.

Kirk
66
  #26  
Old March 20th 18, 04:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 7:10:48 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:52:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.


Actually, no; as Dan has pointed out, when aircraft are in formation (which is a specific case - not just a bunch of aircraft in the same area, like a gaggle), only the flight lead is supposed to have his transponder on; the rest are supposed to be in standby. In pre-Mode S days this was essential as multiple Mode 3s responding in the same area at the same time would overwhelm the SSR system at worst and trigger all sorts of collision alarms at best.

When the formation breaks up, the wingmen are then supposed to turn on their transponders. Releasing from tow is breaking up the tow formation, so....

This applies to all military and civilian formation flights.

Kirk
66


The technical need for the leader only squawking is partially folklore by now. Modern radar can decorelate multiple overlapping Mode C only targets, and absolutely see multiple Mode S targets. A direct result of the S for selective interrogation in the Mode S name. Wether an ATC controller might prefer to see one target for a formation flight, and not want to have spurious warnings on their display is a different question.

When I've asked Reno area NORCAL TRACON folks if they would want "formation flights" of gliders or GA aircraft to only squawk leader they said no.

ADS-B Out goes even further and targets will not "step on each other".

I would not be turning off any transponder or ADS-B Out systems unless specifically instructed to by ATC or you had a prior arrangement with them where it has been made clear they want this. And unsure, ask them.


  #27  
Old March 20th 18, 05:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 9:49:09 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
Sounds like submitting a "bug fix" to your MFR.
While they can think of lots of things, sometimes users bring up a worthwhile suggestion/fix.

Taken from a "beta boy" (field service) for a company. Service tried out things, we made suggestions to the programmer, sometimes we had to "prove a need", but he was great to work with.

YMMV.......


Yes please.

Turning off and on safety equipment is yet another distraction, and yet another thing to forget to do, and PowerFLARM should actually be very useful on tow. If the towplane is not PowerFLARM equipped then that towplane pilot is not getting warned about FLARM equipped gliders in the area, and so you want the glider pilot who does have PowerFLARM to be on the radio if needed to warn the towplane. Does the towplane have ADS-B In? If not then the PowerFLARM in the glider is also standing guard against 1090ES Out equipped GA aircraft the tow pilot may not see. Remember that triple fatality Cirrus and Towplane/glider middair in the Denver area? It is getting more and more likely now that a similar GA aircraft will have 1090ES Out. Turning off safety equipment is a last resort, lets start by checking first if there is something that could be setup better here, or if not then help FLARM reduce the problem.

If if has not been already can the OP here please submit a report to your PowerFLARM dealer and they can make sure that gets to FLARM support. Include in that all the relevant information you can, including: A clear description of exactly how/what/when the glider pilot sees an alarm (like in the original post above). An IGC log file from the PowerFLARM. The PowerFLARM config file from the glider. What local transponder if any is in the glider. Details of the transponder and ADS-B Out in the towplane (find all it's ADS-B out settings, esp. aircraft type, ICAO address etc.) and/or include a FAA ADS-B report for the towplane from here... https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx. There are configuration things listed there that FLARM may want to know. (I'm assuming this is in the USA..).

  #28  
Old March 20th 18, 06:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 10:13:23 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 7:10:48 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:52:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.


Actually, no; as Dan has pointed out, when aircraft are in formation (which is a specific case - not just a bunch of aircraft in the same area, like a gaggle), only the flight lead is supposed to have his transponder on; the rest are supposed to be in standby. In pre-Mode S days this was essential as multiple Mode 3s responding in the same area at the same time would overwhelm the SSR system at worst and trigger all sorts of collision alarms at best.

When the formation breaks up, the wingmen are then supposed to turn on their transponders. Releasing from tow is breaking up the tow formation, so...

This applies to all military and civilian formation flights.

Kirk
66


The technical need for the leader only squawking is partially folklore by now. Modern radar can decorelate multiple overlapping Mode C only targets, and absolutely see multiple Mode S targets. A direct result of the S for selective interrogation in the Mode S name. Wether an ATC controller might prefer to see one target for a formation flight, and not want to have spurious warnings on their display is a different question.

When I've asked Reno area NORCAL TRACON folks if they would want "formation flights" of gliders or GA aircraft to only squawk leader they said no.

ADS-B Out goes even further and targets will not "step on each other".

I would not be turning off any transponder or ADS-B Out systems unless specifically instructed to by ATC or you had a prior arrangement with them where it has been made clear they want this. And unsure, ask them.


Understood - that's why I used the caveat "pre-Mode S". But the problem still applies if you have a Mode C backing up your ADS-B, right? And definitely still applies to most military jets until they all get updated to Mode S/ADS-B.

As usual, the devil is in the details - how many civilian flights or all-glider flight are really "formations"? Towing is about the only common (?) case, and that is not usually going very high or into congested airspace.

I seriously doubt ATW would want everyone in a 16-ship formation of RV-6s to have their Mode 3/C on!

Kirk
  #29  
Old March 20th 18, 09:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dirk_PW[_2_]
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

Campbell,

Please post what you get back from LXNav about the handling of FLARM alerts.. I doubt the ADS-B alerts are a concern, but regular mode-C equipped gliders flying with you will 'jam' your vario (i.e. you can't push any buttons to get rid of the alert short of turning off the alerts entirely from the config page - or having your buddy turn off their xpdr). BTW, that is exactly how I am solving this problem, I've turned off FLARM alerts on the vario.. I have a FLARM LED and an Oudie still getting FLARM inputs so I don't really need it displayed on the vario also. It is unfortunate because I like the way the S80 displays FLARM and ADS-B targets that are not an immediate threat. Hopefully they can offer a suppression mechanism (for mode-c xpdr traffic specifically) in a future software release. I have been very impressed with their customer support so far.
  #30  
Old March 21st 18, 04:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Default Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

Dirk, Campbell,

I reported the mode C issue to LXNAV and after few back and forth I managed to convince them this is a real problem and not user error, and they promised to fix it in the next release. So far I found the LXNav folks to be very responsive, so I expect a fix soon.
I also just reported the tow plane ADSB problem as I experienced it as well, hopefully they will come up with a solution for that as well.
The best way to resolve these sorts of issues is to report the issue to the manufacture of your device, not just RAS. They normally don’t read RAS.

Ramy
 




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