Glider Crash - Minden?

Ramy wrote:
Of course, we shouldn't blame anyone at this point, and my appologize
if it sounded like, we don't even know yet if the glider had a
transponder or not. I was just trying to make a point (again) on the
importance of transponders, as the only mean currently available to us
to avoid these kind of accidents. But how can a jet travelling at over
300 knots, which may have been 400 knots closing speed, could see a
glider on time to react if (assuming) the glider was flying straight
and level? It is almost impossible to see a glider more then a mile
away if it is not turning or zooming. This translates into 5 seconds or
so to see and react at these speeds.
Since on average we are circling say 30% of the time, we are invisible
70% of the time we are in the air.The only reason we don't collide all
the time is that the sky is big and gliders are small. See and Avoid
only works in traffic pattern, not when crusing. Check the following
article:
http://dwp.bigplanet.com/fosterfligh...ants&UID=10015
To avoid making myself unpopular, I'll rest my case. I am very glad no
one was hurt, and hope that more pilots will fly with transponders at
their own choice as a result. And if you do, please don't turn it off
away from Reno, especially not over the white mountains as some of us
are flying with TPAS. If you don't use a tranponder, please make a
circle every few minutes...

Ramy

SAM 303a wrote:
Sure, blame the victim.
I haven't seen anything that suggests that the glider pilot was in any way
at fault. The glider was hit by the jet, not vice versa. Visual rules were
in effect.
Why are we asking what else could the glider pilot do?
Why aren't we asking "what else could the jet pilot have done?"
The jet does not have a greater right to use the skies than the glider.

I'm not arguing against transponders. I am arguing in favor of taking a
stand on the principle that we all have a right to use the skies, subject to
our compliance with the appropriate rules. We should not stand before the
regulators saying "we'll add any gizmo you ask if you'll just let us keep
flying". If anyone was at fault here it was the jet pilot for (pick one or
more of the following) not maintaining a visual scan of traffic, flying too
fast to react to the presence of a glider, not recognizing that the
sectional markings showing a glider port might be significant to how she
operated the aircraft.


"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
om...
A miracle. Did the ASG 29 used a transponder? Assuming not, I am wondering
if he could not afford one...
This is not good as there are elections going on in NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to make the skies
safer!!
Maybe by enforcing the use of transponders in the Reno area? I don't see a
problem with that...

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Rumor control here...

Challenger 800X with 5 on board on route to Reno from San Diego
collided with an ASG29 around 16,000ft east on Minden on the Pinenut
mountains.

The Jet landed gear up at Carson City the pilot sustaining minor
injuries in the initial impact.

The Glider Pilot bailed and landed ok.

Look at KRNV.com or RGJ.com for more info.

This is not good as there are elections going on in NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to make the skies
safer!!

Later

Al


Mitch wrote:
Heard there may have been a glider - biz jet crash in Minden? True or
False?

-EX

We know how to recognize a thermaling glider from far off. But the glider
can disappear during two parts of the circle even when we know where to
look. And the jet jock probably does not know what to look for or to
understand the significance of what (s)he sees.

A thermalling glider has a moving blind spot that may be 15 seconds or more.
Not much-but how much distance can a bizjet cover in 15 seconds? Remember to
increase the TAS (and thus GS) by 2% per thousand feet over and above the
IAS.---The jet can go from a speck to very big in that distance.

--
Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF" USA


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Zn6Jg.3900$nR2.1435@trnddc03...
kirk.stant wrote:
Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the air
to see from another aircraft approaching.


A thermalling glider should be able to see approaching aircraft more
easily, too. Quite different from being run down by a faster aircraft
coming up behind. We probably shouldn't be too smug at this point, until
we know the facts for sure.

--
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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

I was told that the transponder was brand new, and not certified yet,
so it was not turned on...

BTIZ wrote:
reports are the ASG29 had a transponder..
so now what are we going to enforce..
BT

....and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.


Mike


Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
I was told that the transponder was brand new, and not certified yet,
so it was not turned on...

BTIZ wrote:
reports are the ASG29 had a transponder..
so now what are we going to enforce..
BT

Mike the Strike wrote:
...and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.


One serious downside would be to cause a false Resolution Advisory
indication on another ship's TCAS, resulting in a traffic conflict where
none was likely otherwise, either with the "offending" glider or another
ship.


Jack

HL Falbaum wrote:
We know how to recognize a thermaling glider from far off. But the glider
can disappear during two parts of the circle even when we know where to
look. And the jet jock probably does not know what to look for or to
understand the significance of what (s)he sees.

A thermalling glider has a moving blind spot that may be 15 seconds or more.
Not much-but how much distance can a bizjet cover in 15 seconds? Remember to
increase the TAS (and thus GS) by 2% per thousand feet over and above the
IAS.---The jet can go from a speck to very big in that distance.

Yes, and even worse, the glider goes from a tiny speck to not very big
in the same distance. It's a tough situation for see-and-avoid.


--
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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

OK, let me rephrase the question - what is the downside of operating a
new transponder and encoder that are correctly working (properly
reporting position and altitude) but are not certified?

Mike


Jack wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
...and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.


One serious downside would be to cause a false Resolution Advisory
indication on another ship's TCAS, resulting in a traffic conflict where
none was likely otherwise, either with the "offending" glider or another
ship.


Jack

Mike the Strike wrote:
OK, let me rephrase the question - what is the downside of operating a
new transponder and encoder that are correctly working (properly
reporting position and altitude) but are not certified?

How do you find one of those?


Jack

----------------------

Jack wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
...and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.

One serious downside would be to cause a false Resolution Advisory
indication on another ship's TCAS, resulting in a traffic conflict where
none was likely otherwise, either with the "offending" glider or another
ship.


Jack

Jack wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
...and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.


One serious downside would be to cause a false Resolution Advisory
indication on another ship's TCAS, resulting in a traffic conflict where
none was likely otherwise, either with the "offending" glider or another
ship.

What does "certification" entail? When my transponder was installed, all
it got was a 5 minute "VFR check" with a little box about 5 feet from
the glider that showed it responded to interrogations and that the mode
C altitude reported was the airport elevation. It that all it takes to
ensure a TCAS isn't fooled?

--
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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Exactly my point. Certification is often a quick and dirty test by
someone who probably isn't an expert on avionics just using a test box
or gizmo of some sort. It's easy to test your encoder yourself - many
transponders will report their output for you - and if your transponder
replies to interrogations with the correct altitude, the only questions
remaining are the transmitter output frequency and power. (something I
am equipped to measure too, but then I am a geek with high-tech toys!)

If I had a working transponder, it would be on, whatever the status of
the paperwork!

Mike


What does "certification" entail? When my transponder was installed, all
it got was a 5 minute "VFR check" with a little box about 5 feet from
the glider that showed it responded to interrogations and that the mode
C altitude reported was the airport elevation. It that all it takes to
ensure a TCAS isn't fooled?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"