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Continental E-225-4 question
TTE: 2135
SMOH: 1316 STOH: 16 I realize this is an OLD engine model that will probably have to be switched to an IO-470 or IO-520, but given these numbers and if it has had no really long periods of idle time, would you be worried beyond reasonable doubt about getting another 300 to 500 hours out of it? (also assuming compressions are still good). -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas |
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Continental E-225-4 question
Your question is a little short on details so my response will be
general at best. This is a spline shaft engine limiting your choice of prop to Hartzell models which are either AD ridden or expensive. There are only 2 accessory pads, requiring the use of a "T-drive" to gain a third pad and a second "T-drive" to gain a fourth. "T-drives" are made of pure unobtainium and aren't cheap. The starter is either going to be an Eclipse E80 or a Delco direct drive. Both have planetary gear sets and cost plenty to overhaul. Generators in the 35A range are the typical producers of power with the Skytronics 6550 50A alternator being the ONLY modern alternative. These engines run hot! Compare the E series cylinder fin density to your typical IO-470 angle-valve cylinders and you can see why. The cylinders WILL NOT MAKE TBO. (flame away) But I know from personal flight experience and from friends with E185/205 and E225 engines that the compression readings fall well below 60/80 after about 400-600hrs. Run it lean and hot and you won't make it that long. The stock carb is a PS-5C Bendix pressure carb, essentially a throttle-body fuel injection. These require 10-15psi fuel pressure and must have a vapor/fuel return to the tank. This complicates fuel tank switching and eats up one of the accessory pads for the fuel pump. Engine mounts for the -4 aren't like any other more modern Continental large bore engines. A swap out to an IO470/IO520 will undoubtedly require a new engine mount. Good points? Light weight, smooth running. For an original design airplane or homebuilt I would not recommend using one of these engines. When my cache of support parts are consumed or my Hartzell prop requires replacement I will be swapping my E series engine out for something more modern. Good luck, Gary Plewa AP/IA On May 30, 6:05 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote: TTE: 2135 SMOH: 1316 STOH: 16 I realize this is an OLD engine model that will probably have to be switched to an IO-470 or IO-520, but given these numbers and if it has had no really long periods of idle time, would you be worried beyond reasonable doubt about getting another 300 to 500 hours out of it? (also assuming compressions are still good). -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas |
#3
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Continental E-225-4 question
Gary,
The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that... 1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem, 2) the starter will be expensive to repair, 3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35 Amps, 4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH) 5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation. This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000 for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas "Gary" wrote in message oups.com... Your question is a little short on details so my response will be general at best. This is a spline shaft engine limiting your choice of prop to Hartzell models which are either AD ridden or expensive. There are only 2 accessory pads, requiring the use of a "T-drive" to gain a third pad and a second "T-drive" to gain a fourth. "T-drives" are made of pure unobtainium and aren't cheap. The starter is either going to be an Eclipse E80 or a Delco direct drive. Both have planetary gear sets and cost plenty to overhaul. Generators in the 35A range are the typical producers of power with the Skytronics 6550 50A alternator being the ONLY modern alternative. These engines run hot! Compare the E series cylinder fin density to your typical IO-470 angle-valve cylinders and you can see why. The cylinders WILL NOT MAKE TBO. (flame away) But I know from personal flight experience and from friends with E185/205 and E225 engines that the compression readings fall well below 60/80 after about 400-600hrs. Run it lean and hot and you won't make it that long. The stock carb is a PS-5C Bendix pressure carb, essentially a throttle-body fuel injection. These require 10-15psi fuel pressure and must have a vapor/fuel return to the tank. This complicates fuel tank switching and eats up one of the accessory pads for the fuel pump. Engine mounts for the -4 aren't like any other more modern Continental large bore engines. A swap out to an IO470/IO520 will undoubtedly require a new engine mount. Good points? Light weight, smooth running. For an original design airplane or homebuilt I would not recommend using one of these engines. When my cache of support parts are consumed or my Hartzell prop requires replacement I will be swapping my E series engine out for something more modern. Good luck, Gary Plewa AP/IA On May 30, 6:05 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote: TTE: 2135 SMOH: 1316 STOH: 16 I realize this is an OLD engine model that will probably have to be switched to an IO-470 or IO-520, but given these numbers and if it has had no really long periods of idle time, would you be worried beyond reasonable doubt about getting another 300 to 500 hours out of it? (also assuming compressions are still good). -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas |
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Continental E-225-4 question
Jim,
You're welcome. Sounds like the biggest hurdle, namely the prop, has already been taken care of. I'm guessing it is set up for constant speed with a Hartzell A-1B/C governor. If so you should already have a tee drive on the LH side in tandem with the fuel pump, either a Romec RD7790 or a Thompson TF1900. If you have the Thompson watch out for the drive pin which should be inspected periodically for wear. When they finally go the engine gets very quiet :^). The bottom ends on these engines are pretty tough. If you have good oil pressure (e.g. 40-50psi hot cruise, 10-15psi hot idle) then it should make TBO and perhaps beyond. Gary Plewa On May 30, 7:49 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote: Gary, The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that... 1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem, 2) the starter will be expensive to repair, 3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35 Amps, 4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH) 5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation. This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000 for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas"Gary" wrote in message |
#5
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Continental E-225-4 question
Gary wrote:
Jim, You're welcome. Sounds like the biggest hurdle, namely the prop, has already been taken care of. I'm guessing it is set up for constant speed with a Hartzell A-1B/C governor. If so you should already have a tee drive on the LH side in tandem with the fuel pump, either a Romec RD7790 or a Thompson TF1900. If you have the Thompson watch out for the drive pin which should be inspected periodically for wear. When they finally go the engine gets very quiet :^). The bottom ends on these engines are pretty tough. If you have good oil pressure (e.g. 40-50psi hot cruise, 10-15psi hot idle) then it should make TBO and perhaps beyond. Gary Plewa On May 30, 7:49 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote: Gary, The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that... 1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem, 2) the starter will be expensive to repair, 3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35 Amps, 4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH) 5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation. This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000 for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas"Gary" wrote in message I know Gary. I concur with all he says. Gary, will you be at the Navion National? Rip A&P/IA |
#6
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Continental E-225-4 question
You guys running these engines are surely aware of the Am Bonanza
Society's Lew Gage articles? They have a wealth of info. And if you are running one, YOU need to be the expert!! Bill Hale BPPP instructor On May 30, 7:21 pm, Gary wrote: Jim, You're welcome. Sounds like the biggest hurdle, namely the prop, has already been taken care of. I'm guessing it is set up for constant speed with a Hartzell A-1B/C governor. If so you should already have a tee drive on the LH side in tandem with the fuel pump, either a Romec RD7790 or a Thompson TF1900. If you have the Thompson watch out for the drive pin which should be inspected periodically for wear. When they finally go the engine gets very quiet :^). The bottom ends on these engines are pretty tough. If you have good oil pressure (e.g. 40-50psi hot cruise, 10-15psi hot idle) then it should make TBO and perhaps beyond. Gary Plewa On May 30, 7:49 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote: Gary, The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that... 1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem, 2) the starter will be expensive to repair, 3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35 Amps, 4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH) 5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation. This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000 for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas"Gary" wrote in message |
#7
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Continental E-225-4 question
Gary wrote:
Your question is a little short on details so my response will be general at best. This is a spline shaft engine limiting your choice of prop to Hartzell models which are either AD ridden or expensive. Well, there is the Beech electric prop as well. However considering that pitch change bearings are non-existant, I doubt thats any better. On a Bonanza, the Beech prop with 88 inch blades is considered by many to give the best performance. There are only 2 accessory pads, requiring the use of a "T-drive" to gain a third pad and a second "T-drive" to gain a fourth. "T-drives" are made of pure unobtainium and aren't cheap. Not all Hartzels require a T-drive, but you probably want one that does. The Hartzel 12v20-7E on my Bonanza does not have a T-drive. Its variable pitch, but not constant speed. A decidedly weird prop. I've been told that if I ever part the plane out, the Beechcraft Museum would like my prop. Now doesn't that generate warm fuzzies ;-). The starter is either going to be an Eclipse E80 or a Delco direct drive. Both have planetary gear sets and cost plenty to overhaul. I've no experiance with the Delco and I've not overhauled my Eclipse but I've been told that the Eclipse is way bigger than is needed for the E-225. It is apparently somewhat common on larger radials. Maybe it won't need to be overhauled very often? Dunno. These engines run hot! Compare the E series cylinder fin density to your typical IO-470 angle-valve cylinders and you can see why. Well, they certainly *can* run hot and mine certainly has gotten hotter than I like. Dilligent use of an engine monitor and much tinkering with my baffling has allowed me to usually keep all the temperatures under 380. Note the 'usually' weasel words. The cylinders WILL NOT MAKE TBO. (flame away) But I know from personal flight experience and from friends with E185/205 and E225 engines that the compression readings fall well below 60/80 after about 400-600hrs. Run it lean and hot and you won't make it that long. I'm comming up on 550 hours and so far I'm ok. Everything above 60, but maybe not by much. Hmmm, walnut desk top knockknock. For the past 200 hours have been running it lean of peak. I can get it to only about 20 LOP. I can get it a smidge more by playing with the carb heat, but it certainly takes a little fiddling. Good points? Light weight, smooth running. Pretty economical to operate as well. I flight plan for 10 gph burning mogas. Airport wags have warned me that the mogas will destroy the rubber in the carb, but I've had no problems there. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR (soon to be Boise, ID) |
#8
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Continental E-225-4 question
I had heard that same line about mogas and carburetors but I would think
that would be addressed in the STC. Which brings up another question - anyone know of a mogas STC for the E225-4 in a Navion? I'm waiting on my membership info to come back from ANS before I can search their members-only side. -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas "Frank Stutzman" wrote in message ... ... Pretty economical to operate as well. I flight plan for 10 gph burning mogas. Airport wags have warned me that the mogas will destroy the rubber in the carb, but I've had no problems there. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR (soon to be Boise, ID) |
#9
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Continental E-225-4 question
Jim Carter wrote:
I had heard that same line about mogas and carburetors but I would think that would be addressed in the STC. Which brings up another question - anyone know of a mogas STC for the E225-4 in a Navion? I'm waiting on my membership info to come back from ANS before I can search their members-only side. Jim, sadly there is no mogas STC for the Navion, with any engine. Rip |
#10
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Continental E-225-4 question
Rip wrote:
Jim, sadly there is no mogas STC for the Navion, with any engine. Rip Yep, I even talked to Petersen about this (the EAA doesn't touch 6 cyls). All they knew was they had tested it and it had failed the vapor lock test. They couldn't remember which engine, fuel system, or model Navion they had used. |
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