drug/alcohol testing policy: effective?

"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
news:to2wd.2559

Never smoked the stuff, have ya? Good for you, man. If you *did* smoke
it,
you'd know that pot (and lots of other stuff) affects you during and well
after partaking of it. Tell your name to just about any long-term pot
smoker. Even if 's not stoned, he won't remember it next time he meets
you.

I disagree. I know laywers, professors, engineers, programmers and, well,
parents who have smoked pot most of their adult life who don't demonstrate
those characteristics.

One, as I think I mentioned earlier, was UAL/PDX' employee of the year three
or four times in his 23-year career. He got a special award for not missing
a day of work in five years. I know for a fact he's smoked pot daily since
before I was born. Hasn't been in a traffic accident in as long as I can
remember (drove as a courier after UAL closed down his unit and laid the
entire crew off), never been arrested.

Having said that, I am absolutely not condoning mixing drug use of any kind
with flying. I've done my share of, eh, sampling, but I won't even eat
curry before flying because it makes me drowsy, and coffee is a diuretic
which is a distraction so I limit that as well.

I guess what torques me off is, the vast majority of commercial pilots make
squat, and yet every time they take off they put their lives and their
passengers' lives in danger. Every single time. They're not paid in
accordance with the risk of their OWN lives, and yet it takes some well-paid
group of bureaucrats somewhere to legislate safety to people who risk their
lives every damned minute they're working. My thinking, of course, may be
way off.

Not to mention the fact that a commercial pilot who performs an illegal
act on a
habitual basis has no place in the cockpit, man!

LOL! My grandparents broke down in southeast Oregon on a hunting trip and
chartered a pilot to take them to Reno for the car part. In Reno, the
pilot rented a car and drove them to the part place. My grandfather (a
cop) said the guy was as good a pilot as those he rode with in WWII, but
that he ran four stop signs in the short amount of time they were with him.
:

-c

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:33:01 -0600, Frank wrote in
::

Chip Jones wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:36 GMT, "Chip Jones"
wrote in
t::

The
problem with drugs is that you can't always know when a person is high,
or
when drug use is affecting critical safety skills like judgment or
coordination.

You're probably right about detecting impaired judgment, but physical
coordination can be measured:
http://isc.temple.edu/pe204/HandCorrelationReport.htm

Let's see, that wouldn't be a TEST, would it? As in, a TEST to detect
physical impairment? :-)

Chip, ZTL


But that test doesn't indicate whether or not the person lacking
coordination was on pot or Benadryl. Or just hadn't slept in three days.

As regards flight safety this would be the kind of test that makes sense.
Testing for pot|booze|crack only serves an agenda that puts social issues
ahead of safety.

That was my point. Thank you.

It makes more sense to test for performance than drug use unless
safety isn't the objective.

"Morgans" wrote in message news:Ni7wd.10243

Using pot, in the vast majority of users, becomes more important than
almost
anything.

That has been my experience with four people that I know out of, oh, maybe a
hundred pot smokers. (Let me elaborate: I'm a performing and recording
musician AND one of my parents was a regular pot smoker, so it comes with
the turf. I'm fine working with -most- pot smokers but refuse to deal with
drunks or anybody using anything stronger than pot. And the pot smokers I
know who've been as addicted as you describe are not the caliber of people
who fly planes anyhow.)

What I'm refuting is the "vast majority" part of your post. It CAN be
exactly as you describe in people who already have addictive tendencies. I
know a physicist and programmer who smoked pot daily and, unfortunately, is
an alcoholic. He quit smoking pot when he felt like doing so, but can't
shake the alcoholism despite the toll it has taken on him.

So, my direct experience has been exactly the opposite when it comes to pot,
but exactly as you describe when it comes to alcoholics. And meth users,
which is an epidemic here in the northwest, but, like I said, nobody trusts
'em.

-c

"Happy Dog" wrote in message news:9v7wd.18717$%

Using pot, in the vast majority of users, becomes more important than
almost anything.

You mispelled "crack".

Alternately, meth. More commonly, alcohol.

-c

"Jim Fisher" wrote in message
news:uj3wd.3254$

I find it amazing the folks who are defending this kind of behavior on a
commercial pilot. Those people either have their head up their patooties
or
would know a joint from a line of coke.

Interesting point. A woman I know told me that the most cocaine she's ever
seen was being snorted by a group of airline pilots in her stepfather's
kitchen during a New Year's party sometime in the early '80s.

-c

"Morgans" wrote in message news:Ni7wd.10244

User, or clueless, ladies and gentlemen? You make the call.

Neither. You're simply incorrect.

And I'd wager, as a performing and recording musician, that I have more
experience with pot users and alcoholics than both of you combined.

-c
(not an addict.)

"Chip Jones" wrote in message news:718wd.606

They are motivated to eat, if nothing else. But habitual
drug users aren't motivated to give a rats ass about much more than
getting
high.

Except the professor I know. PhD in--get this--criminology. Dude's an
expert in drug abuse arrest demographics. He and his father smoke pot
together, and his father is a very successful lawyer in Alaska. They spent
a month together with their families in New Zealand, bungee jumping and
sailing and surfing and scuba diving, while non-users like the CFIs on this
group struggle to pay their bills. I also know a habitual smoker who is
an accomplished physicist and progammer, just bought a 44' ketch once owned
by the Disneys, and works from his sailboat which, last I heard, was at the
Catalina Islands.

I also know two pot-smoking engineers, a former US Army Major who asked me
if I wanted to partake (I declined) and a woman who smoked pot in college
and graduated Suma Cum Laude from a university in Texas. Let's see...I
know a music teacher who smoked pot daily when we were in college together.
She quit five years ago and hasn't been **** tested yet. Geologist, a
jeweler, a crane operator...

Habitual aviatiors aren't motivated to give a rat's ass about much more than
flying.

-c

"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
in the last 3 years I have not had a
positive result that I din't end up getting the employee to admit was
indeed

And how did you get the employee to admit this?

No admissions obtained by letting the employee get any benefit from the
admission that he would not otherwise get (like keeping his job) counts
as legitimate.

Michael

No benefit was offered. I have them in my office and I act like the fine
human I am an they roll everytime.

"Chip Jones" wrote in message news:718wd.606$

How about you, Spiccoli?

....then...

I am opposed to all forms of smoking, drinking alcohol, and boxing while
engaged in an air safety endeavour like commercial flying or air traffic
control.

Yeah, but....no offense. You sound like you have anger/hostility issues of
your own to deal with and, quite frankly, based on your responses to these
people here, I wouldn't get in an airplane with you because you seem, well,
like an arrogant prick. For example:

I can see for myself that you do know a lot about brain fade. Sorry to
hear
your life is so stressful. Good thing you aren't an aviation
professional!

....and...

I vote for chicken ****. Kinda like a guy who doesn't have the stones to
put his real name on a post.

Good luck with your flying career. I sure wouldn't have anything to do with
you in the cockpit, though. Before you start insulting other people, think
about your own faults and ask yourself if you're the kind of guy that people
would want to entrust their lives with, regardless of whether you're clean.

-c

"cylon" wrote in message
causing suspicion. I know pilots who have left the bar and flown trips
without anyone realizing they were impaired. A small part of the
commercial
pilot group partaked in their desires before flying because the chances of
getting caught were slight. They could function on an acceptable level
while
impaired.

Those people have slowly been weeded out by randon testing. Randon testing
is the one thing that has deterred the chronic users and drinkers.

They administered breathalyzers? Drug testing is different from alcohol
testing. There's a big difference between being impaired on the job and a
few days before, no?

moo