PSA: Don't be rude on the radio

I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

The first time was when I was at a local uncontrolled field with one
of my students to introduce solf-field takeoffs and landings. When we
were turning downwind, I heard a Cirrus call "On the ILS at the outer
marker". I haven't flown any approaches for months, so I had no idea
how exactly far out he was. There were at least two other people in
the pattern, so instead of asking him to give a more accurate position
report, I just went on. Just before I got abeam the numbers on
downwind, the Cirrus guy called 3 miles out, so I told my student to
just do a short approach instead of extending which would have screwed
everyone else up.

I'm looking out the window like crazy to find this Cirrus guy but I
don't see him anywhere. Then suddenly I hear him say in a snappy voice
"Cessna on base at *** do you plan on cutting me off?" Startled, I
looked around but couldn't for the life of me see him. I responded
"uuhh, Cirrus on ILS I don't see you", then he snaps back
sarcastically, "oh 45 seconds before impact..."

I look right in front of me and there he is zooming by. I didn't
realize Cirrus's were so fast. He had to have been going more than 150
knots. I've turned short approaches in front of Seminoles when they
were on 3 mile ILS finals and it has never been a problem...

Anyways, the guy didn't have to be such a huge asshole. A busy pattern
is stressful enough, the ones coming in straight in can at least be a
little helpful, or at the VERY LEAST not act like a little baby when
things don't go their way.

Of the 50 or so times I've been on extended downwind when someone else
in on a 3-10 mile final, I'd say 10 times I went behind them and it
hasn't been a problem, 35 times I've gone behind them and it hasn't
been a problem, and 5 times I messed it up and either cut the person
off, or caused some other disruption. The other 4 times it was just a
simple "sorry about that", or some other professional way of handing
the situation, then forgetting it and moving on. It just makes it that
much harder to shake it off when the person decides to act that way.
Maybe I need to get thicker skin, but that situation had me all worked
up for the rest of the flight, and I admit it hindered my instructing
ability a little.

As a little side note, that same Cirrus guy came today to my home
airport which is even busier. There were like 7 planes already in the
pattern, 3 on 45 for the pattern, and then comes my Cirrus. I
recognized it was him because I remembered the tail number (N903CD).
As soon as he called, tower told him to slow to final approach speed
(which I just had to snicker to myself when I heard that ^_^). About a
minute later I, on an extended downwind, was told to turn base, which
would have put me right in front of the Cirrus. The tower cleared me
for a full stop only (which I've never been issued before, our
controllers are really good at accommodating a bunch of pattern
traffic), and told the Cirrus to break off and enter on the 45 for a
left traffic. After I landed, I switched to ground and just called it
a day. When I got back to the training room, another instructor joked
about how I was "kicked out of the pattern". He asked me of I heard
about the Cirrus who "got ****ed off and left". I said no but I can
only imagine what he actually said...

Anyways, back on topic. Also today, on another flight with another
student, we were coming back on the 45 for a downwind entry. Not too
long after he told me to report established on the downwind, someone's
mic got stuck and all I could hear on the radio was "EEEERRRRRRCHSHH
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" punctuated with my call sign and the words "I'm not
communicating with him", then some more "AAAAAAEERRRRNNNGH". I saw a
plane on downwind which was about to converge with me, a helicopter
which looked like was doing WHO KNOWS WHAT, and someone else on upwind
about to turn crosswind. It looked like I was going to converge with
the plane on downwind, so I just decided to do a 360 where I was
(about a mile before entering downwind). As soon as a break in the
radio screeching appeared, I quickly told tower I'm doing a 360 to
avoid what by then I thought was a clueless student on a solo who
didn't know how to use the radio.

Well as soon as I told tower, a voice came on saying "..and that will
put you right in front of 64 Delta" (or whatever his tail number was).
Apparently there was a plane behind me, but I had no idea. Buy
anyways, he had to do a evasive maneuver also, and he was ticked off.
He came back on and told tower he had to do an evasive to avoid "the
kamikaze" as he called me.

Well guess what, bub? I had to do an evasive maneuver too. Thats an
everyday thing 'round these parts. There are two busy flight schools,
as well as a lot of military activity (a C-130 comes here a few times
a week to do touch and goes, gives us a lot of wake turbulence
avoidance practice ^_^). I had to fly a downwind parallel to him and
then follow him in. I couldn't let my student do the flying because it
was an atypical situation. AND I had to do all this while I'm getting
name-called by some tard out of no-where. It just makes things that
much more frustrating.


So please, don't be a jackass show off on the radio. I actually saw
the second guy climb out his plane after we landed. I saw he had what
looked like his wife in there with him. I imagine he was acting like
that to show off in front of his wife *rolleyes*.

Anyways, just please be mindful of others, especially considering the
environment your in (busy airspace; emergency in the area; whatever it
may be). Just be aware that those snappy one liners may make you look
cool, but they just make others frustrated and more life more
difficult.

I know this post is getting long, but theres one more instance I want
to bring up. When I was getting my multi rating a few months ago, we
went to a towered airport a few miles away to do a few ILS/VOR
approaches. While we were doing the procedure turns and stuff, we
could hear this clueless student pilot entering on a solo cross
country. This guy was a total wreck. First he was 10 miles south; then
he was 5 miles north, then he was over such and such lake which is 15
miles northwest. The controllers at this particular airport aren't
known as the friendliest around, so as you can imagine, the poor guy
wasn't having a good time.

I wasn't really paying attention to what all was being said because I
was focusing on my approaches, but after doing about 3 full ILS/VOR
approaches (procedure turn and all) he still was confused as to where
he was and hadn't landed yet (but I believe was still in the pattern).
We were just doing missed approaches, breaking off well before the
airport area to stay out of the way.

I don't really blame the controller because he was frustrated too, but
it was what my instructor said which I think was worst of all. During
our last approach, he said something to the effect of "Do you want us
to do another low approach so you can handle this guy, or can we do a
touch and go the this next one?"

I just cringed when I heard that. I just can imagine being in his
shoes. The last thing I want to know is that I'm messing not only the
controller's thing, but other pilots as well. We didn't NEED to do a
touch and go, we could have just did our share by helping out with the
low approaches, then moved on. Indirectly telling the poor student how
incompetent he is (which he HAS to already know by then) just helps no
one out. It just makes things worse.

I don't think what my instructor said

On May 9, 11:35 pm, buttman wrote:
I don't think what my instructor said

stupid freaking google groups submitting my post before it was done...

the past paragraph should say:

I don't think what my instructor said was intentionally meant as
harassment, but if I were in the student's shoes, I would have
interpreted it as harassment just the same. So please everyone, mind
what you say on the radio!

I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

I can't comment too much on your experiences, but I will say this:
I've heard more rude and improper radio talk in the last two years
than I had in the previous ten. The rudeness that has invaded our
society is starting to penetrate the cockpit environment, and *that*
is a shame.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

buttman wrote:
I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

The first time was when I was at a local uncontrolled field with one
of my students to introduce solf-field takeoffs and landings. When we
were turning downwind, I heard a Cirrus call "On the ILS at the outer
marker". I haven't flown any approaches for months, so I had no idea
how exactly far out he was. There were at least two other people in
the pattern, so instead of asking him to give a more accurate position
report, I just went on. Just before I got abeam the numbers on
downwind, the Cirrus guy called 3 miles out, so I told my student to
just do a short approach instead of extending which would have screwed
everyone else up.

I'm looking out the window like crazy to find this Cirrus guy but I
don't see him anywhere. Then suddenly I hear him say in a snappy voice
"Cessna on base at *** do you plan on cutting me off?" Startled, I
looked around but couldn't for the life of me see him. I responded
"uuhh, Cirrus on ILS I don't see you", then he snaps back
sarcastically, "oh 45 seconds before impact..."

I look right in front of me and there he is zooming by. I didn't
realize Cirrus's were so fast. He had to have been going more than 150
knots. I've turned short approaches in front of Seminoles when they
were on 3 mile ILS finals and it has never been a problem...

Anyways, the guy didn't have to be such a huge asshole. A busy pattern
is stressful enough, the ones coming in straight in can at least be a
little helpful, or at the VERY LEAST not act like a little baby when
things don't go their way.

Of the 50 or so times I've been on extended downwind when someone else
in on a 3-10 mile final, I'd say 10 times I went behind them and it
hasn't been a problem, 35 times I've gone behind them and it hasn't
been a problem, and 5 times I messed it up and either cut the person
off, or caused some other disruption. The other 4 times it was just a
simple "sorry about that", or some other professional way of handing
the situation, then forgetting it and moving on. It just makes it that
much harder to shake it off when the person decides to act that way.
Maybe I need to get thicker skin, but that situation had me all worked
up for the rest of the flight, and I admit it hindered my instructing
ability a little.

As a little side note, that same Cirrus guy came today to my home
airport which is even busier. There were like 7 planes already in the
pattern, 3 on 45 for the pattern, and then comes my Cirrus. I
recognized it was him because I remembered the tail number (N903CD).
As soon as he called, tower told him to slow to final approach speed
(which I just had to snicker to myself when I heard that ^_^). About a
minute later I, on an extended downwind, was told to turn base, which
would have put me right in front of the Cirrus. The tower cleared me
for a full stop only (which I've never been issued before, our
controllers are really good at accommodating a bunch of pattern
traffic), and told the Cirrus to break off and enter on the 45 for a
left traffic. After I landed, I switched to ground and just called it
a day. When I got back to the training room, another instructor joked
about how I was "kicked out of the pattern". He asked me of I heard
about the Cirrus who "got ****ed off and left". I said no but I can
only imagine what he actually said...

Anyways, back on topic. Also today, on another flight with another
student, we were coming back on the 45 for a downwind entry. Not too
long after he told me to report established on the downwind, someone's
mic got stuck and all I could hear on the radio was "EEEERRRRRRCHSHH
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" punctuated with my call sign and the words "I'm not
communicating with him", then some more "AAAAAAEERRRRNNNGH". I saw a
plane on downwind which was about to converge with me, a helicopter
which looked like was doing WHO KNOWS WHAT, and someone else on upwind
about to turn crosswind. It looked like I was going to converge with
the plane on downwind, so I just decided to do a 360 where I was
(about a mile before entering downwind). As soon as a break in the
radio screeching appeared, I quickly told tower I'm doing a 360 to
avoid what by then I thought was a clueless student on a solo who
didn't know how to use the radio.

Well as soon as I told tower, a voice came on saying "..and that will
put you right in front of 64 Delta" (or whatever his tail number was).
Apparently there was a plane behind me, but I had no idea. Buy
anyways, he had to do a evasive maneuver also, and he was ticked off.
He came back on and told tower he had to do an evasive to avoid "the
kamikaze" as he called me.

Well guess what, bub? I had to do an evasive maneuver too. Thats an
everyday thing 'round these parts. There are two busy flight schools,
as well as a lot of military activity (a C-130 comes here a few times
a week to do touch and goes, gives us a lot of wake turbulence
avoidance practice ^_^). I had to fly a downwind parallel to him and
then follow him in. I couldn't let my student do the flying because it
was an atypical situation. AND I had to do all this while I'm getting
name-called by some tard out of no-where. It just makes things that
much more frustrating.


So please, don't be a jackass show off on the radio. I actually saw
the second guy climb out his plane after we landed. I saw he had what
looked like his wife in there with him. I imagine he was acting like
that to show off in front of his wife *rolleyes*.

Anyways, just please be mindful of others, especially considering the
environment your in (busy airspace; emergency in the area; whatever it
may be). Just be aware that those snappy one liners may make you look
cool, but they just make others frustrated and more life more
difficult.

I know this post is getting long, but theres one more instance I want
to bring up. When I was getting my multi rating a few months ago, we
went to a towered airport a few miles away to do a few ILS/VOR
approaches. While we were doing the procedure turns and stuff, we
could hear this clueless student pilot entering on a solo cross
country. This guy was a total wreck. First he was 10 miles south; then
he was 5 miles north, then he was over such and such lake which is 15
miles northwest. The controllers at this particular airport aren't
known as the friendliest around, so as you can imagine, the poor guy
wasn't having a good time.

I wasn't really paying attention to what all was being said because I
was focusing on my approaches, but after doing about 3 full ILS/VOR
approaches (procedure turn and all) he still was confused as to where
he was and hadn't landed yet (but I believe was still in the pattern).
We were just doing missed approaches, breaking off well before the
airport area to stay out of the way.

I don't really blame the controller because he was frustrated too, but
it was what my instructor said which I think was worst of all. During
our last approach, he said something to the effect of "Do you want us
to do another low approach so you can handle this guy, or can we do a
touch and go the this next one?"

I just cringed when I heard that. I just can imagine being in his
shoes. The last thing I want to know is that I'm messing not only the
controller's thing, but other pilots as well. We didn't NEED to do a
touch and go, we could have just did our share by helping out with the
low approaches, then moved on. Indirectly telling the poor student how
incompetent he is (which he HAS to already know by then) just helps no
one out. It just makes things worse.

I don't think what my instructor said

The same could be said about your reply here. You want to rag on
somebody for being a condescending jackass on the radio and then your
are just as bad when describing a student pilot as clueless and a total
wreck. As for yourself, you said you were not to the numbers yet on
downwind when he reported a 3 mile final and you turned in front of him
anyway. You still had to go further on your downwind before you could
turn base then traverse the base leg all while he was covering the 3
miles of his final. I'm not surprised he got ****ed. You need to be
flexable in the pattern as much as anyone else.

Jay Honeck wrote:

The rudeness that has invaded our
society is starting to penetrate the cockpit environment, and *that*
is a shame.

How's this for rude:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Music/05/10/odd.bostonpopsfight.ap/index.html

A fight at the symphony. G

The tower cleared me
for a full stop only (which I've never been issued before, our
controllers are really good at accommodating a bunch of pattern
traffic), and told the Cirrus to break off and enter on the 45 for a
left traffic.

Sounds like the tower wanted the cirrus to have to go around.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

At the risk of being rude on the newsgroups, you quoted the whole g055@mned
message for nine lousy lines of reply?

Jim



"John Theune" wrote in message
news:2SE0i.11222$dj2.6382@trndny02...
The same could be said about your reply here. You want to rag on somebody
for being a condescending jackass on the radio and then your are just as
bad when describing a student pilot as clueless and a total wreck.

On May 10, 2:35 am, buttman wrote:
I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.


I don't post here that often anymore, but the recent spat of posts
about pattern etiquette has got me going. I really would like to know
how this theory that just because you're doing touch and goes in the
pattern, means you can go ahead and cut off straight in traffic? The
only thing the FAA has to say, regulatory, regarding traffic patterns
is that all turns must be to the left, unless noted, AND take note of
91.113(g)

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while landing,
have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on
the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to
force and aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed...

You're a professional aviator. Your student is paying you for your
expertise in this field, "I don't remember where the maker is" is not
acceptable. Should the Cirrus have been more clear about his position
earlier? Maybe. But as a professional you SHOULD be aware that the
marker is typically 6-7 miles from the threshold. At typical approach
speeds that would mean he's 2-3 minutes out. He then called 3 mile
final; that's 90 seconds. You couldn't see the traffic on final, and
not only did you turn base, but you put your tail to him. You CREATED
a collision hazard by cutting him off, and hoped it would either work
out, or he'd see you and get out of your way. BAD FORM.

And in case you were wondering what the FAA's stance on this practice
is, read this- http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4236.PDF

CFI was in a habit of cutting off traffic on straight in because HE
was in the pattern. FAA yanked his certificates.

Keep this in mind next time; extending your downwind 30 seconds will
not cost your student any more touch and goes; you probably waste more
time cleaning fouled plugs on the run-up than it takes to extend for
traffic. Meanwhile, that traffic flying a straight in most likely is
NOT training, but going somewhere. Would it not be proper courtesy to
let them go about their business and get out of your way? Instead of
playing "mine is bigger" in the traffic pattern.

On May 10, 1:38 am, buttman wrote:
On May 9, 11:35 pm, buttman wrote:

I don't think what my instructor said

stupid freaking google groups submitting my post before it was done...

the past paragraph should say:

I don't think what my instructor said was intentionally meant as
harassment, but if I were in the student's shoes, I would have
interpreted it as harassment just the same. So please everyone, mind
what you say on the radio!

"stupid freaking google groups" doesn't do anything you don't tell it
to do.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

On 5/10/2007 10:59:13 AM, wrote:

And in case you were wondering what the FAA's stance on this practice
is, read this- http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4236.PDF

Wow. That now ex-pilot appeared to have some real issues there. I got bored
reading the list of incidents outlined in the PDF, there were so many.

--
Peter