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Plane with no stall warning device?



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 9th 04, 02:42 PM
Kees Mies
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The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
brakes too.
I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
final.
When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.

To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
The slats pop out and you go up again.

And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.

Regards,
Kees
MS880B


Marty Shapiro wrote in message ...
Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

**23.207 *Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
certified without stall warning devices?


The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of
attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to get
stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back, you
descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon. You can
turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.

Ads
  #22  
Old February 10th 04, 08:12 AM
Marty Shapiro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Kees Mies) wrote in
om:

The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
brakes too.
I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
final.
When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.

To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
The slats pop out and you go up again.

And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.

Regards,
Kees
MS880B


Marty Shapiro wrote in message
...
Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

**23.207 *Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of
flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device
(some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify
a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples
of planes certified without stall warning devices?


The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the
horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.



Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR 23.207 (which
references 23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a
stall warning.

Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement
of 23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it
does NOT meet the requirement of 23.207(d) "When following procedures
furnished in accordance with 23.1585, the stall warning must not occur
during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one
engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to
the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc.

In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and
remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise
climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy,
and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the
FAR requirements for a stall warning.

The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va
and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in
light chop.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)
  #23  
Old February 11th 04, 07:32 AM
Kees Mies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Marty Shapiro wrote in message ...
(Kees Mies) wrote in
om:

The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
brakes too.
I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
final.
When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.

To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
The slats pop out and you go up again.

And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.

Regards,
Kees
MS880B


Marty Shapiro wrote in message
...
Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

**23.207 *Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of
flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device
(some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify
a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples
of planes certified without stall warning devices?

The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the
horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.



Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR 23.207 (which
references 23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a
stall warning.

Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement
of 23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it
does NOT meet the requirement of 23.207(d) "When following procedures
furnished in accordance with 23.1585, the stall warning must not occur
during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one
engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to
the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc.

In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and
remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise
climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy,
and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the
FAR requirements for a stall warning.

The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va
and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in
light chop.


Hi,

Nice research.
I did some myself.
Under KEES' FAR 58112.fgg(c) is stated:
The installation of a stall warning device has NO relationship with
the pilots'/operator/owners' sense of humor.
  #24  
Old February 17th 04, 03:23 AM
cloudclimbr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

..

GLIDERS

Gliders use no mechanical nor electric stall warning devices.

They use the glider.

By feeling the air, feeling control response, remaining cognizant of
roll pitch and yaw attitudes relative to airpeed, watching airspeed,
feeling g forces; watching horizon, watching changing clouds, birds,
smoke, sun angle, wind shadow on water, other aircraft, ground,
terrain features and all outside glider;
keeping glider in coordinated flight by centering yaw string on
front center of canopy, listening, feeling, dancing on clouds, to
keep flying they keep flying, generally without stall.

It is blessed to not have a stall horn aboard.

Gliders often have stick w/elevator trim, ailerons, rudder operated by
adjustable pedals, spoilers or dive brakes, many have manually
operated flaps with positive and negative position settings for climb
cruise and fast running, retractable landing gear, disposable water
ballast, 12 vdc battery elec systems, flight computers linked to gps
maps and sensitive rate of climb indicators w/adjustable sound.
Gliders are usually configured as inline two seaters for training, or
supine single seaters with long plexi canopy for personal use
including glider racing or cross country flying. Modern high
performance gliders are made of glass composite fiber materials
(reinforced plastics).

Thereupon one finds a plane without a stall horn.
 




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