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#31
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Flaps on take-off and landing
Mxsmanic wrote:
Do aircraft commonly have mechanisms to prevent gear retraction when the wheels are touching ground, or is it usually up to the pilot not to do anything unwise? Some do, but it's best not to rely on it. Getting a good bounce on rollout can sometimes release the pressure on the switch enough to get the gear to stop. On the Navion there is NOTHING to stop this. If the handle is up and the crakshaft is turning the gear is coming up. It's all hydraulic. Even the starter motor is enough to get the hydraulic pump to start the nose gear retracting. I have seen exactly one Navion with a mechanical interlock that keeps you from moving the handle while the airplane is on the squat switch. I was under the impression that full flaps is a normal configuration for landing; is this not true? Then why would you you have them? The FAA believes that FULL FLAPS should always be used for landings (not one that I believe in). |
#32
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Flaps on take-off and landing
Interesting that no one mentioned airport elevation re; use of flaps on
takeoff. Or we only talking simulators here? Know of one instance where a PT-19 ended up in a cornfield using full flaps from an elevated airport in W. Va. Some small craft, such as a Cessna 150, can barely maintain level flight with full flaps at our local - 1200'. |
#33
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Flaps on take-off and landing
Jim Macklin wrote:
Johnson Bar You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or ditch that you see at the last moment before a forced landing if they are up for the glide. If you have ones that react fast. I loved the "johnson-bar" flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric flapped 172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The Navion hydraulic flaps are even slower. |
#34
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Flaps on take-off and landing
Ron Natalie wrote:
BULL****. 20G33 was good student solo weather in Colorado where I learned. We regularly took the Cardinal RG's out in these conditions. It was my interpretation of Tom's post that the Cardinal will not fly *prematurely* when taxiing in those wind conditions. -- Peter |
#35
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Flaps on take-off and landing
birdog wrote:
Interesting that no one mentioned airport elevation re; use of flaps on takeoff. Or we only talking simulators here? Know of one instance where a PT-19 ended up in a cornfield using full flaps from an elevated airport in W. Va. Some small craft, such as a Cessna 150, can barely maintain level flight with full flaps at our local - 1200'. I can tell you the Navion is pretty bizarre with full flaps on takeoff. I made that mistake once. She breaks ground very fast but she won't climb out worth crap. This is actually not uncommon. In some planes it's a crapshoot as to whether flaps help the short field performance. The 172 for instance breaks ground quicker, but climbs slower to the 50' obstacle so it's a wash. If you've got one of the old johnson-bar manual flap version your optimal performance is to start the roll with the flaps up, drop them to 10 degrees to break ground and once you get to Vx raise them back up again. |
#36
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Flaps on take-off and landing
A friend of mine was a pilot for the State of Illinois.
They were flying the governor to Washington, DC in the King Air [about 20 years ago]. Somewhere near Cleveland [I think] they saw a flicker and then had a DC 9 at their altitude pass right to left a few hundred feet in front. Turned out the sector controller had forgotten to issue the higher altitude to the DC 9. The Governor did get a personal phone call from the Sec DOT ad the Admin at the FAA with an apology. The form the pilot filled out had this question, "What the PICs first action after the near mid-air?" The pilot wrote down, "Changed shorts" "Stubby" wrote in message . .. | | | Jim Macklin wrote: | ... | You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or ditch | that you see at the last moment before a forced landing if | they are up for the glide. | ... | Yes and that's one lesson I'll never forget. The instructor had me do a | power-off "short approach" and told me I was *not* allowed to apply | power no matter how bad I thought it was! The pucker factor increased | enormously and I could see the edge of the hill under the runway | looming. Certain that we were going to crash into it, I was begging to | add power. The instructor calmly demonstrated how to use flaps just to | get a few more feet and complete the landing. It was a good lesson but | I think he owes me some new underwear. |
#37
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Flaps on take-off and landing
Gliding with the flaps up and about 5 knots faster than
"best glide" allows the pilot to "stretch" the glide by a slight increase in pitch attitude bringing the speed to the best glide speed. If you fly at best glide you have no option to stretch the glide since any increase of decrease in speed will steepen the glide. Also, if there is any wind, you want minimum sink if flying downwind and you need a faster speed when flying into the wind. Extreme example, wind 50 knots, airspeed 50 knots, flight path vertical with no forward progress. Flap extension reduces the stalling speed, often only a few knots, but lift increases as does drag. The airplane will balloon and slow very fast, the extra distance and altitude gained is only a few feet, but if all you need is to clear a 5 foot cattle fence or a 10 foot wide ditch, that is a technique that is useful. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P "Bob Moore" wrote in message . 122... | Stubby wrote | The instructor calmly demonstrated how to use flaps just to | get a few more feet and complete the landing. It was a good | lesson but I think he owes me some new underwear. | | Best glide distance with flaps is always less that best glide | distance flaps up. Bad demonstration...bad lesson learned. | The reason that most GA airplanes use flaps is to increase | drag and steepen the glide angle without increasing the speed. | | Bob Moore |
#38
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Flaps on take-off and landing
And a Playboy magazine is safer than sex.
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... | Margy Natalie writes: | | My primary flight instructor had a great saying "Do whatever it takes". | If you are flying into a short field with minimal wind full flaps | would make sense. If you are flying into a long, high-speed runway | (like Dulles or something) a no flap landing can be used. | | Is there a reason why you'd want to land with no flaps? | | I have a great idea, why don't you get a few hours in a "real" airplane. | | Too expensive and too time-consuming. And I seriously doubt that I | would learn much of anything useful in just a few hours. If I had | time and money, I'd much prefer to spend it in certified full-motion | simulators, which would give me essentially all the experience of real | flight with zero risk and maximum flexibility and enjoyment. | | -- | Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#39
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Flaps on take-off and landing
I'm not sure about the Navion, but many hydraulic retraction
systems have a valve that blocks fluid flow unless the strut is compressed. "Ron Natalie" wrote in message m... | Mxsmanic wrote: | | Do aircraft commonly have mechanisms to prevent gear retraction when | the wheels are touching ground, or is it usually up to the pilot not | to do anything unwise? | | Some do, but it's best not to rely on it. Getting a good bounce | on rollout can sometimes release the pressure on the switch enough to | get the gear to stop. | | On the Navion there is NOTHING to stop this. If the handle is up and | the crakshaft is turning the gear is coming up. It's all hydraulic. | Even the starter motor is enough to get the hydraulic pump to start | the nose gear retracting. I have seen exactly one Navion with a | mechanical interlock that keeps you from moving the handle while the | airplane is on the squat switch. | | | I was under the impression that full flaps is a normal configuration | for landing; is this not true? | | Then why would you you have them? The FAA believes that FULL FLAPS | should always be used for landings (not one that I believe in). |
#40
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Flaps on take-off and landing
True, different airplanes have different characteristics.
The early Helio Couriers had two hand cranks on the ceiling on a concentric shaft. The small handle was for trim and the longer handle was for the flaps. The Helio could take-off with the full span flaps [just a very few feet lost to ailerons, spoilers being primary roll control]. Helio even had instructions in their flight manual for the H295 on how to take-off when the mud was over the top of the tires [ a real soft field]. Full flaps, full throttle and pump the elevator full forward and aft would cause the airplane to climb out of the mud and then take-off. On dry ground the H295 would take-off in as little as two airplane lengths. The factory had a grass strip next to the assembly building. They would land and take-off day in and out, from the 300 feet of grass, even with straight EDO floats. "Ron Natalie" wrote in message m... | Jim Macklin wrote: | Johnson Bar | | | You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or ditch | that you see at the last moment before a forced landing if | they are up for the glide. | | If you have ones that react fast. I loved the "johnson-bar" | flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric flapped | 172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The Navion | hydraulic flaps are even slower. | |
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