The prisoners of Rabaul (Was: P-39's, zeros, etc.)

From: Cub Driver lo

ed flying to Australia in one of them. I can
look this up in Bloody Shambles if you like.

I just bought this two-volume set (and damned pricey at 29.95 pounds per
volume) with high hopes. Haven't begun on it yet, but noting your comment
above I turned to the description of the MacArthur evacuation and noted, alas,
errors of no small moment. The authors state that of the 4 B-17s originally
sent for MacA., two turned back with engine trouble, true enough, but then say
that a third crashed off the Australian coast. Very wrong. This was Capt.
Godwin's B-17, which he put down into the sea short of the runway at Del Monte
Field, close enough that the crew could wade ashore and Godwin could receive
some choice words from them complimenting him on his flying skill. It was also
at Del Monte where Godwin met MacArthur and charmed him into making him his
personal pilot for the flight down and then put him on his staff. This is all
pretty well known stuff and for the "Bloody Shambles" trio of author's to not
know this, especially considering how it affected future air operations, is
distressing. Further on the authors' state that 3 "new" B-17s were sent to
fetch McA. At first reading I took this literally and snorted, as there were
no "new" B-17s in the theater at the time, and with the lack of spare parts--or
even any facilities where engine changes could be performed--any "new" B-17s
sent to Australia very quickly would have been well used. But on reflection it
could be interpreted that the authors by writing "new" meant to say
"additional" or "other," so I'll let that go.
But having spotted this blunder among others on first cracking open the cover,
I wonder what other gross errors litter the text. And this is supposed to be
one of the better researched books on WW2 aviation.
Crap.


Chris Mark

Where I mention Godwin I meant Godman. And re those three "new" B-17s sent,
one of these aborted within minutes of leaving Batchelor Field and never left
Australia, let alone made it to Del Monte Field, so only two got in. Bloody
Shambles says this plane developed engine trouble at Del Monte field. If so,
it never would have left it. Because there was not way to repair it and no way
a B-17 could get out of that field on three engines. Apparently the authors of
BS (good acronym for this book) believe fixing a B-17 engine is a trivial
matter, easily accomplished without tools or spare parts, or those totally
unnecessary drones, airplane mechanics.


Chris Mark

From: (Peter Stickney)

Repair of a damaged engine at Del
Monte wasn't entirely out of the question. It had been used as a
fighter base since just before hostilities broke out. If the
repairs didn't require R1820 specific parts, they might just have
been supplies and people available to perform them.

There were three "main" strips at the Del Monte Plantation, designated by
number. No.1 was the only one suitable for B-17s to get in and out of. B-18s
also operated out of there and one was destroyed on the ground by strafing
Zeros a couple of weeks after the opening of hostilities. The carcass was still
there months later, having been looted of any useable components. 19th bomb
group mechanics evacuated from Luzon ended up at No.3, about 8 miles, about
half an hour by truck, from No. 1 with no transportion available and no
orders. No. 3 was a narrow grass strip edging a canyon 500 ft deep on one side
and a boulder field on the other. (No. 2 was a fighter strip.) They were left
stranded there for some time; in fact they were still up there in early April
when 3 B-17s and 10 B-25s flew up from Australia and landed at No. 1 strip to
give the Japs a little of their own back (these B-25s were technically owned by
the Dutch but the 3AG had "borrowed" them). Maj. Gen. Ralph Royce was flying
the lead B-17 and when he found out there were 19th group B-17 mechanics left
in the lurch at No.3 he issued orders in no uncertain terms to get them down to
No.1. And he ordered the B-25s to fly over to No.3 so the Japs wouldn't be
able to nail all the bombers in one pass over the No. 1 strip, which they were
hitting daily. It was a tough squeeze to get the B-25s into that little strip.
Col. John Davies, who had been with the 27th Bomb Group in the PI when the Japs
attacked on Dec 8 and then evacuated to Australia when that group was sent down
to Java and then to Australia, where it merged with the 3d, led the B-25s.
Fortunately he had been to Del Monte before and knew the strip.
The next morning the B-25s took off to hit a Jap airfield at Cebu and on the
way were bounced by a couple of P-40s who apparently thought they were Nells,
but veered off, without firing and disappeared. When they blasted the jap
airfield there were Jap fighters in the air, but they didn't go after the B-25s
until after bombs away. Maybe they thought they were friendlies. But then
they came after them pretty hard. the firepower the B-25s put out seemed to
surprise them and after one close in pass they didn't push in too close. So
they didn't even put one hole in the 25s.
The B-17s were tasked with hitting targets at Luzon but one had engine trouble
and wasn't able to get off. The mechanics brought down from No.3 were
definitely needed (but no spare parts). They worked on it all morning and
were still at it when the other 2 B-17s returned and they left off to refuel
and rearm them for another strike. At this point the Jap air force showed up
and bombed the hell out of the field, destroying the B-17 under repair and
damaging the other two, so no second strike for them. The Japs missed the
B-25s at No.3, they being pretty well camoflaged by the ground crews who had
pushed them in amongst the boulders and trees. They refueld and rearmed and
went to Davao. On the afternoon mission the B-25s were escorted part way by a
P-40B and a P-40E. The P-40B could not keep up with the climb rate of the
B-25s--the E could--and it fell behind. The flight was intercepted by Petes
who dove on the climbing bombers and then circled around for a follow-up attack
which was broken up by the lone P-40E and the tangled mess of them spun down on
the P-40B which apparently knocked one of the Petes out of the sky. Anyway one
went down in flames. The B-25s flattend their climb and left the Japs and
P-40s behind.
There had been two P-40Es being worked on at No.3 when the B-25s left on their
second bombing raid, but while they were gone the Japs raided the field and one
of them failed to get airborne when they scrambled and crashed at the end of
the runway. The pilot was trapped in the flaming wreckage and because Gen.
Royce had ordered firefighting equipment (such as it was) to be brought down to
No. 1 to be ready to save the B-17s (and it turned out to be needed with the
bombing raid), the fire couldn't be put out and he burned to death. The body
was still smoldering in the wreckage when the B-25s got back. It was too hot
for anyone to get close. The body could be smelled cooking all that evening.
The ground crews worked all night to repair the bomb damaged B-17s. They got
them flyable, but without hydraulics, no brakes or superchargers (same problem
Pease had with his plane the month before when he flew up to get MacA). They
left the next morning with VIP evacuees, including Cmdr Bulkeley, the PT boat
skipper who had got MacA down from Luzon. A P-40 pilot stowed away. The two
B-17s were escorted along their way by one lone P-35. Two Petes intercepted
the huffing and puffing B-17s as they groaned out of the field so that P-35 was
needed. The pilot chased those Petes all over Del Monte plantation.
Gen. Royce decided the state of repair of the B-17s didn't suit him, so he
hitched a ride back on one of the B-25s, that were purring like contented cats,
since the 3AG had had enough sense to bring along some of their own
groundcrewmen to see that they stayed in good shape.
The B-25s flew two more missions the next day, returning from their second
mission at dusk. Their long-range tanks were refitted and they took off for
Australia at midnight. They took some fighter pilots along as excess baggage.
Everybody was dead beat, it being a damned long flight up from Charters Towers
to Del Monte and then immediately two combat missions back to back followed by
two more then next day and then fly right back to Australia. Those crews were
absolutely--ab-so-lute-ly--dead beat. But all 10 planes made it back without
mishap. One of those amazing unsung performances where everyone was stretched
to the limit and beyond, did their jobs to spec, overcoming very high risks and
unexpected obstacles of all sorts, yet completed the mission as good as it
could possibly be done, got no particular thanks (hey, it was what they were
paid to do), gave no particular thought to having done the job, and just went
on to the next near-impossible challenge.
The 19BG ground crews were left abandoned at Del Monte No. 1 AFAIK. But, hey,
they were enlisted men, so who cares, right? Except that their skills were in
very short supply during the next few months. If they could have been gotten
out maybe Harl Pease and his crew, among others, wouldn't have ended up
enduring Jap hospitality on Rabaul.


Chris Mark

when 3 B-17s and 10 B-25s flew up from Australia

As a footnote, two pilots of these 13 aircraft were awarded the medal of honor
in subsequent actions, both for raids to Rabaul, both posthumously One was
Capt. Pease. The other was Maj. Ray Wilkins.


Chris Mark

Apparently the description in Bloody Shambles of MacArthur's extraction from
Del Monte, as well as the description of the B-17/B-25 episode is lifted from
John Toland's But Not in Shame.
I've been told that the BS author's real interest was BCE stuff and they didn't
really give much attention to the US side.
At least they're not as bad as Costello (The Pacific War) in which he mentions
MacA's B-17 flight from Mindanao to Darwin took five hours, and that at Darwin
MacA boarded a train for the remainder of his journey.
Are there no reliable books covering this part of the war?


Chris Mark

Chris, these stories are enough to make a man cry. If you got this
information out of a book, please post the title. On the other hand,
if you didn't, then please write the book and post the title!
--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

Well, there is a book about the prisoners of Rabaul, by Henry Sakaida.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...f=nosim/annals

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:32:19 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug
wrote:


Chris, these stories are enough to make a man cry. If you got this
information out of a book, please post the title. On the other hand,
if you didn't, then please write the book and post the title!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

From: Gernot Hassenpflug

Chris, these stories are enough to make a man cry. If you got this
information out of a book, please post the title.

I'm looking for a good book!

On the other hand,
if you didn't, then please write the book and post the title!

You would seem to be in a great position to write a book using Japanese
sources. Surely the war must be a big subject to the Japanese, but what can be
found in English from a japanese point of view is very limited. Much of what
there is appears to be related to fighter planes and pilots. I'd love to read a
book, based directly on Japanese sources, about Japanese bomber development,
tactics and operations.

I've been fussing around with a history of USAAF air operations in the Med for
a number of years. I suppose it is about time I wrapped it up. (But then I'll
lose my excuse for business deductions of trips to the Greek Isles and Capri!)


Chris Mark

ost (Chris Mark) writes:

From: Gernot Hassenpflug

Chris, these stories are enough to make a man cry. If you got this
information out of a book, please post the title.

I'm looking for a good book!

I'm looking for the time to read a good book....

You would seem to be in a great position to write a book using Japanese
sources. Surely the war must be a big subject to the Japanese, but what can be
found in English from a japanese point of view is very limited. Much of what
there is appears to be related to fighter planes and pilots. I'd love to read a
book, based directly on Japanese sources, about Japanese bomber development,
tactics and operations.

Yes, being here in Japan is a boon and a curse at the same time (see
above... let alone the time to research and write a good
book). Probably when I retire I can do something useful in that line,
say in 30 years or so. In the meanwhile I am afraid dedicated
historians will have to do that work as best they can - the more
decide to do their post-graduate studies or further in Japan the
better. Actually my interest is more in the individual, personal,
tales of ordinary Japanese soldiers and civilians than the technical
aspects these days. These accounts are most difficult to find in
translated form, and when they are, they tend to be one-dimensional
because the whole background of culture is washed out in the
translation.

I suppose it is about time I wrapped it up. (But then I'll
lose my excuse for business deductions of trips to the Greek Isles and Capri!)

:-)

Regards,
Gernot
--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

On 28 Jul 2003 15:28:21 GMT, ost (Chris Mark) wrote:

Surely the war must be a big subject to the Japanese, but what can be
found in English from a japanese point of view is very limited. Much of what
there is appears to be related to fighter planes and pilots.

curiously enough, the best stuff available on this line has been
available for more than half a century, and that's the "Japanese
Monograph" series published by the U.S. Army of Occupation in Japan in
the late 1940s, early 1950s. They vary hugely in quality, but they
were written by demobbed Japanese officers (perhaps enlisted as well)
using what resource material was available, plus their personal
memories. Some of them have been republished
www.danford.net/historic.htm and the Library of Congress has a
complete set on microfilm.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub