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"Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help, I'm in the water'"



 
 
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  #71  
Old April 29th 05, 04:01 PM
Matt Barrow
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.com...
Matt Barrow wrote:
Here's just a few:
1) Poor fuel planning and continuing on with low fuel from Michigan

side.
2) Water crossing
3) No floatation devices




If he had pants on, he had floatation gear. Get someone to show you how

to knot
the legs, then inflate the pants by swinging it over your head from above

and
behind you to in front of you in one swift movement. The trapped air will

then
hold you up for quite a while like water wings.... and they can always be
reinflated ad nauseum.

His biggest risk was hypothermia. If he'd only had a light.... I always

carry
a waterproof light with me in my car and when I fly. Always.


He was an expert swimmer and it took the search boat how long to reach the
area? In 32 degree water he would have lasted only 30 minutes at best; they
would have found his corpse. As he was very lean, he might have had even
less time.

Has anyone ever seen a small inflatable raft (2-4 person) that would be
small enough to carry onboard an aircraft? I figure it would keep you out of
the water.









  #72  
Old April 29th 05, 04:07 PM
Matt Barrow
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.com...

Folks need to be a little circumspect about what this unfortunate fellow

did and
didn't do. None of us were there. And there but for the grace of God....

I did lots of stuff when I was 20 that I wouldn't do today.


Anyone have any of those "I Learned About Flying From..." stories?

A year ago, I missed plastering myself all over the landscape but the
dumbest of luck AND timing.

I figure that incident used up all my life's supply of luck, so I don't
count on it anymore.

Anyone want details to hobnob over?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO




  #73  
Old April 29th 05, 04:13 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"James Robinson" wrote in message
...

Given the time of the accident (close to midnight) I'm curious about
where he might have dropped in for fuel along the way at that time of
night. He was visiting near Syracuse, NY, and it looks like about 575
nmi to Watertown, WI, which is near the maximum range of a Piper Archer,
obviously depending on configuration.


A direct route between Hamilton NY and Watertown WI passes just a few miles
north of Muskegon MI. The FBO would have been closed by the time he was in
the area, but they probably have someone on call for after hours fuel.


  #74  
Old April 29th 05, 04:19 PM
Jose
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Sure it's armchair QB'ing, but at this point, he should have been
relaying exact position and asking for the USCG chopper/ships to be
rolling.


That assumes he was able to determine his exact position. What navigational
capabilities did he have aboard?


Seems easier enough to see an airplane in the air with strobes on, going
in a known direction, than to find one ditched at night.

True, we don't even know if he had strobes, but it's a good bet.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #75  
Old April 29th 05, 04:20 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...

No it's not - with proper survival gear, a ditching is eminently
survivable. Crossing the lake WITHOUT it means the result is death.


Yes, but we know he did not have proper survival gear. You have an odd way
of expressing agreement.


  #76  
Old April 29th 05, 04:57 PM
Larry Dighera
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On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:01:08 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote in
::

In 32 degree water he would have lasted only 30 minutes at best


If the water had been 32 degrees F (instead of 40), he could have
walked to shore. :-)
  #77  
Old April 29th 05, 05:00 PM
Gene Seibel
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Oh, I've got plenty of those stories. I have one about running out of
fuel. http://pad39a.com/gene/breathe.html Compared to this one it was
a non-event because it was daylight, good weather, and over flat land.
An event many years before taught me to be very leery about combining
weather, night, and hostile terrain. Seperately they can be managable,
even if you do something stupid. Combined they can be deadly, even if
you do everything right.

Not sure how luck works in aviation. I hear that the next ball on a
roulette wheel is just as likely to be black, even if the last 50 have
been red. I am doing my best to keep the necessity for luck out of my
flying equation as much as possible. I have done foolish things that I
will never do again. Nevertheless, those things have contributed to my
education in a poignant way that all my instructors' warnings could not
have done. Fortunately, I have survived the first 28 years of my
education. Some aren't so "lucky".
--
Gene Seibel
Confessions of a Pilot - http://pad39a.com/publishing/
Because I fly, I envy no one.

  #78  
Old April 29th 05, 05:12 PM
gatt
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Reporters are soooooooooooooo stupid.

Careful with the generalizations. Many people say the same thing about
people who fly small airplanes or "jump from perfectly good aircraft."


I can count on one hand the number of reporters I see regularly
that actually seem to know what they are reporting about.


Let me elaborate:

One guy mistook miles for feet, prompting the generalization: "Reporters
are so stupid."

The other guy vectored himself over hostile terrain and ran out of fuel,
prompting search and rescue crews to risk their own lives trying to fish him
out of the drink. Would it be fair to make the generalization "Pilots are
sooooo stupid?"

The reporter made a typo. The pilot made a compounded series of poor
decisions and died.
Hope that the insurance industry doesn't make the same sorts of
generalizations about general aviation.

-c


  #79  
Old April 29th 05, 05:22 PM
OtisWinslow
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"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , OtisWinslow
wrote:
But it happens. No one goes out knowing they'll have an accident - even
conscientious pilots have losses of judgement.


Over water so cold it's not survivable .. at nite .. no flotation equipment
....
inadequate planning so as to have enough fuel considering the winds aloft?
That's not lack of judgement, that's a major meldown. I don't want it to
sound like I'm crucifying the poor kid .. listening to that tape is just
a heart breaker.


  #80  
Old April 29th 05, 06:06 PM
Matt Barrow
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"Gene Seibel" wrote in message
oups.com...
Oh, I've got plenty of those stories. I have one about running out of
fuel. http://pad39a.com/gene/breathe.html


Funny how those assumptions (fuel quantity) can be SOOO mistaken, huh?

Compared to this one it was
a non-event because it was daylight, good weather, and over flat land.
An event many years before taught me to be very leery about combining
weather, night, and hostile terrain. Seperately they can be managable,
even if you do something stupid. Combined they can be deadly, even if
you do everything right.
Not sure how luck works in aviation. I hear that the next ball on a
roulette wheel is just as likely to be black, even if the last 50 have
been red. I am doing my best to keep the necessity for luck out of my
flying equation as much as possible. I have done foolish things that I
will never do again. Nevertheless, those things have contributed to my
education in a poignant way that all my instructors' warnings could not
have done. Fortunately, I have survived the first 28 years of my
education. Some aren't so "lucky".
--


I've never had an engine failure, never came close to running out of gas.

OTOH, when I "tempted fate" it could only have been luck that kept me from
digging a big crater.

About a year ago (May 7th) I was late getting out of a closing in Lawton,
OK. We should have been done by 2:00 PM but didn't get done until nearly
4:30. It was the Friday before Mother's Day, and I damn sure had to be home
or I'd face some dire consequences.

Well, I smiled nicely and departed the closing with documents in hand and
raced to the Lawton Municipal Airport. By arrangement, my plane was fueled
and ready after a proper pre-flight. I was wheels up by 5:00 and I figured
I'd be home in slightly less than three hours since there was not a headwind
this time, even a slight tail wind from the south. I would even beat the
sunset, thought I know
that area and those mountains intimately.

I climbed out, did a small diversion around the west end of Ft. Sill, then
headed direct VFR to my home in Montrose, CO, flying at 10,500 feet. I
figured to climb to 16,500 just before crossing the front range of the
Rockies. Now, I get up every morning by 5:00AM, so I was hanging on the end
of a twelve hour day. I was heading directly into the setting sun, so I
pulled the Rosen sun visor down as far as it would go. It was rather cold at
that altitude, so I turned up the cabin heat a bit. Maybe I turned it up a
bit too much, because
I'm not sure where it was, but somewhere out over the boring, flatlands of
the Texas Panhandle, I fell asleep.

I was jolted awake some time later (7:06PM by the clock -- maybe 50-60
minutes later) due to some light turbulence. I must have slept well, because
I remember being instantly awake and pretty alert -- naturally, my first
thought was "Where the hell am I?".

The GPS said I was about 170nm from Montrose. I hit the "NRST" button and it
said I was like 15 nm west of KTAD, Perry Stokes Airport near Trinidad, CO.
I took stock of the situation, said "Holy, ****", and set up a climb to the
16,500 foot altitude I had originally planned and popped on the oxygen
system.

If you plot on a map the course I was flying, I was about 40nm from, and on
a direct course for Blanca Peak, a lovely attraction with it's 14, 350 top.
With my adrenaline now racing, I fortunately had about 70 minutes of
daylight left due to my westbound route. I got everything back on course and
to the proper altitude, continued on and landed about 20 minutes before
sunset. I was current for night flying, but that night the coming darkness
just seemed more ominous once I got on the ground andthought about it.

If that turbulence had not awakened my, I would have hit somewhere around
Blanca Peak at the 10,500 foot mark. Later, I plotted my poistion and route
on the sections to set exactly what my situation had been. If not quite
there, Blanca Peak is surrounded by three other peaks that soar above the
14,000 foot mark. If had been more extreme, it might have caused and upset
that I could not have recoverd from coming out of a state of sleep.
Passibly, the sun in my eyes also kicked me a bit.

I was lucky that time. I figure that at the least I made about a few
boneheaded moves/decisions/judgements that evening, not the least of which
as "gethomeitis":
1) Late day, long week, completely pooped.
2) Departing on a three hour flight just about 3 1/2 hours from sunset.
3) Not checking my route more carefully (though in this case it wouldn't
have helped). Those peaks are the tallest terrain in
the area and only a ten mile diversion to the north would have put my on a
much better route as pertains to terrain. I now use this general route and
come over much lower terrain. In daylight, a forced landing would have
numerous options that I wouldn't just a few miles further south.
4) Thinking this was a routine flight (not when mountains and descending
darkness come into play).
5) I should have gotten some coffee to bring along. Coffee does work for me
and doesn't make me jumpy or excitable. Well, not usually!! 6) Thinking a
good pre-flight, weather check and full fuel tanks was adequate. I never
even stopped to think of my physiological condition. 7) I felt "rested"
after my "nap", but I wonder now if I should have landed at Trinidad and
stayed the night. I could have been
home by 7:00AM the next morning. Was I re-tempting "fate"?

I didn't tell my wife what happened until some weeks later, but I came damn
close to having some much more fatal consequences, infinitely worse that
what I would have encountered from my wife if I got home Saturday morning.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO


 




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