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Continental E-225-4 question



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 30th 07, 11:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Jim Carter[_1_]
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Posts: 403
Default Continental E-225-4 question

TTE: 2135
SMOH: 1316
STOH: 16

I realize this is an OLD engine model that will probably have to be switched
to an IO-470 or IO-520, but given these numbers and if it has had no really
long periods of idle time, would you be worried beyond reasonable doubt
about getting another 300 to 500 hours out of it? (also assuming
compressions are still good).

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas


  #2  
Old May 31st 07, 12:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Gary
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Posts: 15
Default Continental E-225-4 question

Your question is a little short on details so my response will be
general at best. This is a spline shaft engine limiting your choice
of prop to Hartzell models which are either AD ridden or expensive.
There are only 2 accessory pads, requiring the use of a "T-drive" to
gain a third pad and a second "T-drive" to gain a fourth. "T-drives"
are made of pure unobtainium and aren't cheap. The starter is either
going to be an Eclipse E80 or a Delco direct drive. Both have
planetary gear sets and cost plenty to overhaul. Generators in the
35A range are the typical producers of power with the Skytronics 6550
50A alternator being the ONLY modern alternative. These engines run
hot! Compare the E series cylinder fin density to your typical IO-470
angle-valve cylinders and you can see why.
The cylinders WILL NOT MAKE TBO. (flame away) But I know from
personal flight experience and from friends with E185/205 and E225
engines that the compression readings fall well below 60/80 after
about 400-600hrs. Run it lean and hot and you won't make it that
long. The stock carb is a PS-5C Bendix pressure carb, essentially a
throttle-body fuel injection. These require 10-15psi fuel pressure
and must have a vapor/fuel return to the tank. This complicates fuel
tank switching and eats up one of the accessory pads for the fuel
pump. Engine mounts for the -4 aren't like any other more modern
Continental large bore engines. A swap out to an IO470/IO520 will
undoubtedly require a new engine mount.

Good points? Light weight, smooth running.

For an original design airplane or homebuilt I would not recommend
using one of these engines. When my cache of support parts are
consumed or my Hartzell prop requires replacement I will be swapping
my E series engine out for something more modern.

Good luck,
Gary Plewa AP/IA

On May 30, 6:05 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote:
TTE: 2135
SMOH: 1316
STOH: 16

I realize this is an OLD engine model that will probably have to be switched
to an IO-470 or IO-520, but given these numbers and if it has had no really
long periods of idle time, would you be worried beyond reasonable doubt
about getting another 300 to 500 hours out of it? (also assuming
compressions are still good).

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas


  #3  
Old May 31st 07, 12:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Jim Carter[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 403
Default Continental E-225-4 question

Gary,

The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which
should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original
post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that...

1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem,
2) the starter will be expensive to repair,
3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35
Amps,
4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will
probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH)
5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation.

This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so
the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000
for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
Your question is a little short on details so my response will be
general at best. This is a spline shaft engine limiting your choice
of prop to Hartzell models which are either AD ridden or expensive.
There are only 2 accessory pads, requiring the use of a "T-drive" to
gain a third pad and a second "T-drive" to gain a fourth. "T-drives"
are made of pure unobtainium and aren't cheap. The starter is either
going to be an Eclipse E80 or a Delco direct drive. Both have
planetary gear sets and cost plenty to overhaul. Generators in the
35A range are the typical producers of power with the Skytronics 6550
50A alternator being the ONLY modern alternative. These engines run
hot! Compare the E series cylinder fin density to your typical IO-470
angle-valve cylinders and you can see why.
The cylinders WILL NOT MAKE TBO. (flame away) But I know from
personal flight experience and from friends with E185/205 and E225
engines that the compression readings fall well below 60/80 after
about 400-600hrs. Run it lean and hot and you won't make it that
long. The stock carb is a PS-5C Bendix pressure carb, essentially a
throttle-body fuel injection. These require 10-15psi fuel pressure
and must have a vapor/fuel return to the tank. This complicates fuel
tank switching and eats up one of the accessory pads for the fuel
pump. Engine mounts for the -4 aren't like any other more modern
Continental large bore engines. A swap out to an IO470/IO520 will
undoubtedly require a new engine mount.

Good points? Light weight, smooth running.

For an original design airplane or homebuilt I would not recommend
using one of these engines. When my cache of support parts are
consumed or my Hartzell prop requires replacement I will be swapping
my E series engine out for something more modern.

Good luck,
Gary Plewa AP/IA

On May 30, 6:05 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote:
TTE: 2135
SMOH: 1316
STOH: 16

I realize this is an OLD engine model that will probably have to be
switched
to an IO-470 or IO-520, but given these numbers and if it has had no
really
long periods of idle time, would you be worried beyond reasonable doubt
about getting another 300 to 500 hours out of it? (also assuming
compressions are still good).

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas




  #4  
Old May 31st 07, 02:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Continental E-225-4 question

Jim,
You're welcome. Sounds like the biggest hurdle, namely the prop,
has already been taken care of. I'm guessing it is set up for
constant speed with a Hartzell A-1B/C governor. If so you should
already have a tee drive on the LH side in tandem with the fuel pump,
either a Romec RD7790 or a Thompson TF1900. If you have the Thompson
watch out for the drive pin which should be inspected periodically for
wear. When they finally go the engine gets very quiet :^). The
bottom ends on these engines are pretty tough. If you have good oil
pressure (e.g. 40-50psi hot cruise, 10-15psi hot idle) then it should
make TBO and perhaps beyond.

Gary Plewa

On May 30, 7:49 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote:
Gary,

The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which
should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original
post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that...

1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem,
2) the starter will be expensive to repair,
3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35
Amps,
4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will
probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH)
5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation.

This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so
the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000
for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas"Gary" wrote in message


  #5  
Old May 31st 07, 03:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Rip
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Continental E-225-4 question

Gary wrote:
Jim,
You're welcome. Sounds like the biggest hurdle, namely the prop,
has already been taken care of. I'm guessing it is set up for
constant speed with a Hartzell A-1B/C governor. If so you should
already have a tee drive on the LH side in tandem with the fuel pump,
either a Romec RD7790 or a Thompson TF1900. If you have the Thompson
watch out for the drive pin which should be inspected periodically for
wear. When they finally go the engine gets very quiet :^). The
bottom ends on these engines are pretty tough. If you have good oil
pressure (e.g. 40-50psi hot cruise, 10-15psi hot idle) then it should
make TBO and perhaps beyond.

Gary Plewa

On May 30, 7:49 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote:

Gary,

The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which
should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original
post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that...

1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem,
2) the starter will be expensive to repair,
3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35
Amps,
4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will
probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH)
5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation.

This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so
the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000
for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas"Gary" wrote in message



I know Gary. I concur with all he says. Gary, will you be at the Navion
National?

Rip
A&P/IA
  #6  
Old May 31st 07, 04:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Continental E-225-4 question

You guys running these engines are surely aware of the Am Bonanza
Society's Lew Gage articles? They have a wealth of info.

And if you are running one, YOU need to be the expert!!

Bill Hale BPPP instructor


On May 30, 7:21 pm, Gary wrote:
Jim,
You're welcome. Sounds like the biggest hurdle, namely the prop,
has already been taken care of. I'm guessing it is set up for
constant speed with a Hartzell A-1B/C governor. If so you should
already have a tee drive on the LH side in tandem with the fuel pump,
either a Romec RD7790 or a Thompson TF1900. If you have the Thompson
watch out for the drive pin which should be inspected periodically for
wear. When they finally go the engine gets very quiet :^). The
bottom ends on these engines are pretty tough. If you have good oil
pressure (e.g. 40-50psi hot cruise, 10-15psi hot idle) then it should
make TBO and perhaps beyond.

Gary Plewa

On May 30, 7:49 pm, "Jim Carter" wrote:

Gary,


The prop has been replaced with a Hartzell HCAZMV20-4A1 already, which
should eliminate AD 97-18-02. I should have included that in my original
post. Other than that, I surmise from your post that...


1) shortage of accessory drives may be a problem,
2) the starter will be expensive to repair,
3) the generator may be insufficient if I need more current draw than 35
Amps,
4) it will need to be topped in another 400 hours or so (but then it will
probably be run out also won't it? 1800 SMOH)
5) low power, rich of peak will be best for longer term operation.


This is currently in an aircraft that doesn't have too much else at risk, so
the engine seems to be my biggest concern right now. Vref is showing $26,000
for a major on an IO-470 so I'm taking that into account.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply.


--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas"Gary" wrote in message



  #7  
Old May 31st 07, 04:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Frank Stutzman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default Continental E-225-4 question

Gary wrote:
Your question is a little short on details so my response will be
general at best. This is a spline shaft engine limiting your choice
of prop to Hartzell models which are either AD ridden or expensive.


Well, there is the Beech electric prop as well. However considering that
pitch change bearings are non-existant, I doubt thats any better.
On a Bonanza, the Beech prop with 88 inch blades is considered by many to
give the best performance.

There are only 2 accessory pads, requiring the use of a "T-drive" to
gain a third pad and a second "T-drive" to gain a fourth. "T-drives"
are made of pure unobtainium and aren't cheap.


Not all Hartzels require a T-drive, but you probably want one that does.
The Hartzel 12v20-7E on my Bonanza does not have a T-drive. Its
variable pitch, but not constant speed. A decidedly weird prop. I've
been told that if I ever part the plane out, the Beechcraft Museum
would like my prop. Now doesn't that generate warm fuzzies ;-).

The starter is either
going to be an Eclipse E80 or a Delco direct drive. Both have
planetary gear sets and cost plenty to overhaul.


I've no experiance with the Delco and I've not overhauled my Eclipse
but I've been told that the Eclipse is way bigger than is needed for
the E-225. It is apparently somewhat common on larger radials.
Maybe it won't need to be overhauled very often? Dunno.

These engines run
hot! Compare the E series cylinder fin density to your typical IO-470
angle-valve cylinders and you can see why.


Well, they certainly *can* run hot and mine certainly has gotten hotter
than I like. Dilligent use of an engine monitor and much tinkering with
my baffling has allowed me to usually keep all the temperatures under
380. Note the 'usually' weasel words.

The cylinders WILL NOT MAKE TBO. (flame away) But I know from
personal flight experience and from friends with E185/205 and E225
engines that the compression readings fall well below 60/80 after
about 400-600hrs. Run it lean and hot and you won't make it that
long.


I'm comming up on 550 hours and so far I'm ok. Everything above 60,
but maybe not by much. Hmmm, walnut desk top knockknock. For the
past 200 hours have been running it lean of peak. I can get it to
only about 20 LOP. I can get it a smidge more by playing with
the carb heat, but it certainly takes a little fiddling.

Good points? Light weight, smooth running.


Pretty economical to operate as well. I flight plan for 10 gph
burning mogas. Airport wags have warned me that the mogas will
destroy the rubber in the carb, but I've had no problems there.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR (soon to be Boise, ID)

  #8  
Old May 31st 07, 09:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Jim Carter[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 403
Default Continental E-225-4 question

I had heard that same line about mogas and carburetors but I would think
that would be addressed in the STC. Which brings up another question -
anyone know of a mogas STC for the E225-4 in a Navion? I'm waiting on my
membership info to come back from ANS before I can search their members-only
side.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Frank Stutzman" wrote in message
...
...

Pretty economical to operate as well. I flight plan for 10 gph
burning mogas. Airport wags have warned me that the mogas will
destroy the rubber in the carb, but I've had no problems there.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR (soon to be Boise, ID)



  #9  
Old May 31st 07, 11:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Rip
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Continental E-225-4 question

Jim Carter wrote:
I had heard that same line about mogas and carburetors but I would think
that would be addressed in the STC. Which brings up another question -
anyone know of a mogas STC for the E225-4 in a Navion? I'm waiting on my
membership info to come back from ANS before I can search their members-only
side.

Jim, sadly there is no mogas STC for the Navion, with any engine.

Rip
  #10  
Old May 31st 07, 11:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning
Ron Natalie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,175
Default Continental E-225-4 question

Rip wrote:


Jim, sadly there is no mogas STC for the Navion, with any engine.

Rip


Yep, I even talked to Petersen about this (the EAA doesn't touch
6 cyls). All they knew was they had tested it and it had failed
the vapor lock test. They couldn't remember which engine, fuel
system, or model Navion they had used.
 




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