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Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 29th 06, 03:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Duniho
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Posts: 774
Default Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?

"Danny Dot" wrote in message
...
Ferry permits are for planes that are not currently certified, e.g. not
been inspected with a year. At least this is my understanding.


Not correct, it has nothing to do with the annual. A plane that is out
of annual can get a ferry permit but being out of annual is not a
prerequisite.


Thanks for the information. I gather if the plane is in annual, but
"damaged" the rules state the pilot in command makes a decision if the
plane is air worthy????


The PIC is responsible for ensuring that the airplane is airworthy.
However, anything with respect to the airplane that does not meet the
standards under which the airplane was granted an airworthiness certificate
is automatically not airworthy. Whether the PIC determines this is the case
or not doesn't matter with respect to whether the aircraft is or is not
airworthy.

Note that technically speaking, the annual inspection is not a question of
airworthiness. That is, as far as I can recall, the airworthiness
certificate doesn't require annual inspections. Part 91 does (FAR 91.409,
specifically). An airplane without a current annual inspection is not legal
to fly, but it may technically still be "airworthy" (assuming it still meets
the criteria attached to the airworthiness certificate).

Basically, a ferry permit is a method that can be used to legally obtain a
waiver to allow the operation of an airplane outside of the normal
regulations. This applies to a wide variety of situations including (but
not limited to) lack of a current annual inspection, failure to meet the
airworthiness certificate criteria, or even simply to operate the aircraft
outside of the regulations (for example, exceeding the design maximum gross
weight).

Pete


  #32  
Old November 29th 06, 04:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Judah
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Posts: 936
Default Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
ups.com:


Judah wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
oups.com:
I also can't imagine that a FSDO inspector simply walked up to the
plane and randomly opened an inspection panel and found a loose bell
crank. Could it be that there was some other symptom that caused the
inspector to draw his attention there? Perhaps this symptom should have
been noticed by a pilot and especially a CFI?


No, the FSDO does onsite inspections of all FBO's in the district at
least once every two years. Sometimes its a paperwork inspection, other
times they pick a couple of airplanes and disassemble them. I spoke
with several FBOs about this and they had all had this inspection done
at least once. Some did better than others. At some point I think the
FSDO is going to require all CFI's to have a valid IA certificate
before they can instruct.


I've never seen the FSDO rip apart planes on an FBO. I'm not completely
surprised with that, especially if the FBO does its own service.

You're saying the FSDO gave the CFIs crap for flying a plane that was
properly annualed, maintained, and documented, but had some obscure fault
that was not evidencible without ripping the plane apart?

  #33  
Old November 29th 06, 04:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?


Judah wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
ups.com:
I've never seen the FSDO rip apart planes on an FBO. I'm not completely
surprised with that, especially if the FBO does its own service.

You're saying the FSDO gave the CFIs crap for flying a plane that was
properly annualed, maintained, and documented, but had some obscure fault
that was not evidencible without ripping the plane apart?


Absolutely. They wrote up 7 items. 2 of which were that the door seal
on the C-182 was not glued down propertly (so you hold it against the
door as you close the door), other items were the torque of the seat
attachment bolts, two flight control issues (lose bell crank nut, and a
rubbing cable internal), and a couple other similar issues. The FSDO
said none of the items make the plane unairworthly but that they
grounded for the "cummulative issues".
After a couple of the CFIs called lawyers the FSDO "settled" by making
us all go to a manditory safety meeting, no mention on our records.
However, we did have to produce copies of our certificates and medicals
(apparently the FSDO doesn't have a computer that they could look it up
at registry.faa.gov), in addition to BFRs, CFI renewal dates, etc

-Robert

  #34  
Old November 29th 06, 05:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Judah
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 936
Default Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in news:1164771652.238928.229720
@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:


Absolutely. They wrote up 7 items. 2 of which were that the door seal
on the C-182 was not glued down propertly (so you hold it against the
door as you close the door), other items were the torque of the seat
attachment bolts, two flight control issues (lose bell crank nut, and a
rubbing cable internal), and a couple other similar issues. The FSDO
said none of the items make the plane unairworthly but that they
grounded for the "cummulative issues".
After a couple of the CFIs called lawyers the FSDO "settled" by making
us all go to a manditory safety meeting, no mention on our records.
However, we did have to produce copies of our certificates and medicals
(apparently the FSDO doesn't have a computer that they could look it up
at registry.faa.gov), in addition to BFRs, CFI renewal dates, etc

-Robert


Wow. What ballbusters.
  #35  
Old November 29th 06, 04:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,130
Default Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?


Robert M. Gary wrote:

Again, contrary to my experience. In the Mooney community the factory
service centers frequently fly out to airports with a prop and a pair
of jacks after a gear up landing. Jack the plane up, swap the prop, and
fly it back to the shop. I've never heard of any shop having any
problems getting a Lycoming Mooney back to the shop

-Robert


That's normal procedure. Get it out of there with a ferry permit, then
do the major work in the shop. The crank maty be bent or cracked, so
that's the reason for the permit: to limit risk to passengers or people
and property on the ground. The fact that they jacked it up, put on
another prop and flew it back does not in any way prove that the engine
isn't going to fail within the next 100 hours or whatever.

Dan

  #36  
Old November 29th 06, 09:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Duniho
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Posts: 774
Default Get a ferry permit, or just fly it?

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
That's an interesting difference between an experimental,
such as my glider, and an aircraft with a standard type
cert. The experimental does not require an annual, it
requires a yearly "condition inspection," and *that*
inspection, unlike an annual is required by the experimental
airworthiness cert.


Right. As described in 91.409(c), experimental aircraft (and others,
including light-sport) are exempt from the requirement in 91.409(a) to have
an annual inspection. Of course, as you note, an annual inspection is still
actually required (though it's called something else)...the FAA causes that
requirement to be incorporated into the airworthiness certificate.

It's my assumption that this is specific to the kinds of "experimental"
certificates that are likely to be attached to aircraft used in
non-flight-testing situations (such as amateur built). This way, aircraft
that really are true experimental flight design development platforms can
get their exemption, while still applying the common-sense idea of having an
aircraft used for transportation still comply with the spirit of 91.409(a).
It may well be that experimentals used in the development of
non-experimental certificated aircraft have no annual inspection requirement
at all.

Pete


 




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