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What if the germans...



 
 
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  #51  
Old January 17th 04, 06:29 PM
Denyav
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Yes, when you are incapable of achieving criticality duterium
is really not needed. By the way, there was no "land route"
from Norway to Germany available at the time.


Or when you use graphite for Moderation,The "Land route" in Deibners account
refers to the alternative route to the much publicized lake crossing with
ferry,not an open sea route.
  #53  
Old January 19th 04, 05:31 AM
Denyav
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But the Germans were no where
near building a reactor, much less a bomb. Thus the choice of moderator
was inconsequential.


Germans had not one but two graphite moderated reactors and one of them was in
Thuringer Forest,if Germans had no working reactor Hirosima and Nagazaki could
not be bombed anytime in 1945.
Did you ever wonder why the entries made to log book of 89.th Infantry
div.between 4;8. 45 1,35 PM and 4.11.45 7,35 PM are also among document that
were classified for 75 years?.
  #54  
Old January 19th 04, 06:39 AM
tim gueguen
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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
But the Germans were no where
near building a reactor, much less a bomb. Thus the choice of moderator
was inconsequential.


Germans had not one but two graphite moderated reactors and one of them

was in
Thuringer Forest,if Germans had no working reactor Hirosima and Nagazaki

could
not be bombed anytime in 1945.


And your basis for the latter claim is what exactly?

tim gueguen 101867


  #56  
Old January 19th 04, 11:00 AM
Keith Willshaw
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"Denyav" wrote in message
...
But the Germans were no where
near building a reactor, much less a bomb. Thus the choice of moderator
was inconsequential.


Germans had not one but two graphite moderated reactors and one of them

was in
Thuringer Forest,if Germans had no working reactor Hirosima and Nagazaki

could
not be bombed anytime in 1945.


Cite please

There are no references in the literature to any German reactor
ever reaching criticallity so please provide the evidence for ths
claim.

Keith


  #57  
Old January 19th 04, 02:04 PM
robert arndt
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(B2431) wrote in message ...
From:
(Denyav)
Date: 1/18/2004 10:31 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

But the Germans were no where
near building a reactor, much less a bomb. Thus the choice of moderator
was inconsequential.


Germans had not one but two graphite moderated reactors and one of them was
in
Thuringer Forest,if Germans had no working reactor Hirosima and Nagazaki
could
not be bombed anytime in 1945.
Did you ever wonder why the entries made to log book of 89.th Infantry
div.between 4;8. 45 1,35 PM and 4.11.45 7,35 PM are also among document that
were classified for 75 years?.


Where did you get that idea?

Are you suggesting the U.S. had not developed uranium and plutonium enrichment
facilities prior to May 1945?

Are you suggesting the U.S. had not built any form of reactor or pile prior to
May 1945?

The Little Boy bomb and Trinity were just waiting for uranium and plutonium
respectively.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


Captured German uranium was used in the construction of the US atomic
bombs, seized from the Belgian Congo stocks Germany possessed. Germany
also had seperate atomic research facilities, Haigerloch being only
one. Another was working on a spherical reactor for power project as
well as the two radiological weapons found under construction at the
end of the war. Although Germany did not build a bomb itself it did
technology transfer uranium to Japan's program in occupied Korea
(Japan's Genzai Bakudan bomb)... which we still have little
information about (classified).
Further still, Germany also knew about the possibilities of a
thermonuclear weapon in 1944 and nuclear power for submarines.
One can only wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not
persecuted the Jews nor regarded the German atomic research project as
"Jewish Physics" with little funding and no Fuhrer directive to build
such a weapon (Hitler was preoccupied with the wasteful V-weapons
programs). Had the SS Scientific Branch harnassed the mindpower and
manpower of Europe for an official German bomb project there is little
doubt the Germans would have had the bomb first and used it, probably
in 1944.
Say what you want, but both Germany's and Japan's wartime atomic
projects are still not complete as "sensitve material" is still
classified for both. What we are being fed is the same old stale
stories of "they were way behind and we succeded because of our fears
of a Nazi bomb" when all they really had was a small unorganized
research program and impure graphite.
That is just not accurate enough...but makes good official US history.
  #58  
Old January 19th 04, 03:25 PM
Keith Willshaw
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Default


"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
(B2431) wrote in message

...


Captured German uranium was used in the construction of the US atomic
bombs, seized from the Belgian Congo stocks Germany possessed.


Certainly that uranium was sent to the USA and likely was
incorporated into the stocks from which later weapons were built
BUT its highly unlikley that any of that material found its way into
the weapons dropped on Japan. The uranium used in the
Hiroshima bomb had been undergoing enrichment since 1944
and the plutonium in the Nagasaki bombs had been produced
in Hanford before the Belgian material even arrived in the USA


Germany
also had seperate atomic research facilities, Haigerloch being only
one. Another was working on a spherical reactor for power project as
well as the two radiological weapons found under construction at the
end of the war. Although Germany did not build a bomb itself it did
technology transfer uranium to Japan's program in occupied Korea
(Japan's Genzai Bakudan bomb)... which we still have little
information about (classified).


All they got was a little uranium. The Japanese had made little
progress towards building of a weapon but their
theory was rather better and they had managed to make
a number of cyclotrons for enrichment and built a thermal
diffusion separation plant.

The bottom line though is that neither Japan nor Germany had anything like
the industrial resources committed to bring such a program
to fruition and given the fragility of their wartime economies.

The reason that Britain chose to throw in its lot with the USA
was that it was recognised that the industrial resources required
to build the reactors , produce the plutonium, extract it and
turn it into working weapons was such that a timely development
was impossible. Even with the knowledged of how it was
done it took the USSR several years to duplicate these
efforts even with the absolute priority on Soviet resources
it had and with Beria wielding the whip with a will.


Further still, Germany also knew about the possibilities of a
thermonuclear weapon in 1944 and nuclear power for submarines.
One can only wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not
persecuted the Jews nor regarded the German atomic research project as
"Jewish Physics" with little funding and no Fuhrer directive to build
such a weapon (Hitler was preoccupied with the wasteful V-weapons
programs). Had the SS Scientific Branch harnassed the mindpower and
manpower of Europe for an official German bomb project there is little
doubt the Germans would have had the bomb first and used it, probably
in 1944.



If Hitler hadnt held the views he did there would likely
have been no war to start with.


Say what you want, but both Germany's and Japan's wartime atomic
projects are still not complete as "sensitve material" is still
classified for both. What we are being fed is the same old stale
stories of "they were way behind and we succeded because of our fears
of a Nazi bomb" when all they really had was a small unorganized
research program and impure graphite.
That is just not accurate enough...but makes good official US history.



No its what the German physicists themselves and German records
say. Who else should we listen to if not men like Diebner, Heisenberg
etc.

David Irving is scarcely noted for his critical views with regard to
the 3rd Reich , and certainly doesnt produce history that fits the
official line. I suggest you read his book on the subject.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/VirusHouse/

Keith


  #60  
Old January 19th 04, 05:48 PM
Alan Minyard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 19 Jan 2004 05:04:50 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

(B2431) wrote in message ...
From:
(Denyav)
Date: 1/18/2004 10:31 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

But the Germans were no where
near building a reactor, much less a bomb. Thus the choice of moderator
was inconsequential.

Germans had not one but two graphite moderated reactors and one of them was
in
Thuringer Forest,if Germans had no working reactor Hirosima and Nagazaki
could
not be bombed anytime in 1945.
Did you ever wonder why the entries made to log book of 89.th Infantry
div.between 4;8. 45 1,35 PM and 4.11.45 7,35 PM are also among document that
were classified for 75 years?.


Where did you get that idea?

Are you suggesting the U.S. had not developed uranium and plutonium enrichment
facilities prior to May 1945?

Are you suggesting the U.S. had not built any form of reactor or pile prior to
May 1945?

The Little Boy bomb and Trinity were just waiting for uranium and plutonium
respectively.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


Captured German uranium was used in the construction of the US atomic
bombs, seized from the Belgian Congo stocks Germany possessed. Germany
also had seperate atomic research facilities, Haigerloch being only
one. Another was working on a spherical reactor for power project as
well as the two radiological weapons found under construction at the
end of the war. Although Germany did not build a bomb itself it did
technology transfer uranium to Japan's program in occupied Korea
(Japan's Genzai Bakudan bomb)... which we still have little
information about (classified).
Further still, Germany also knew about the possibilities of a
thermonuclear weapon in 1944 and nuclear power for submarines.
One can only wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not
persecuted the Jews nor regarded the German atomic research project as
"Jewish Physics" with little funding and no Fuhrer directive to build
such a weapon (Hitler was preoccupied with the wasteful V-weapons
programs). Had the SS Scientific Branch harnassed the mindpower and
manpower of Europe for an official German bomb project there is little
doubt the Germans would have had the bomb first and used it, probably
in 1944.
Say what you want, but both Germany's and Japan's wartime atomic
projects are still not complete as "sensitve material" is still
classified for both. What we are being fed is the same old stale
stories of "they were way behind and we succeded because of our fears
of a Nazi bomb" when all they really had was a small unorganized
research program and impure graphite.
That is just not accurate enough...but makes good official US history.


None, rpt none, of the yellow cake captured from Germany was used
in the US nuclear program. As for "radiological weapons" that is
a complete lie. Without an operating reactor you are not going to
build "radiological" weapons. Germany was nowhere near building
a reactor, much less a bomb. Japan was no closer.

Der Fuhrer is dead, get over it.

Al Minyard
 




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