What if the germans...

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Perfectly true, their reaction to the news of the Hiroshima
bomb was initially disbelief. They firmly believed they
were in the lead and since they 'knew' a bomb was years
away there was no way the western allies could have done this.

Farm Hall was a well the part of misinformation campaign of the victors.

First message they want convey was "German Scientist were unable to
calculate
critical mass"
But they had a problem namely according Wehrmact documents a Wehrmact
physicist
(Deibner)calculated critical mass exactly and reported it to Wehrmact in
Feb.42.

No he guessed rather inaccurately that it was between 10 and 100 kg


So apparently German scientists forgat in Farm Hall what they knew in
Feb42!!.
So this misinformation campaign collapsed but another one launched to
replace
it namely "Good German scientists (Heisenberg)sabotaged evil Nazis nuclear
bomb
making plans"

That may be Heisenberg's motivation

This could be good starting point for a Hollywood movie but licht years
away
from the reality.Heisenberg could not sabotage anything because he was
wrong in
41 as he was in 45.
Only key person in German nuclear program who might have a reason to
sabotage
program was Houtermans but his background was very well known,anything
less
than success would mean sure death for Houtermans and probably for his
family.


Houtermans was scarcely a key player, he was in an industrial
lan for most of the war

BTW according to pre Farm Hall planning,only two of Farm Hall Guests
supposed
to leave Farm Hall as free man.,but none of them got jailed.
Food for thought.

Many German were interned after the war, few were charged and most released.

Keith

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
No its what the German physicists themselves and German records
say. Who else should we listen to if not men like Diebner, Heisenberg
etc.

All Farm Hall transcripts are edited,even in no portion of edited and
carefully selected transcripts you cannot find anything that suggests that
Deibner is unaware of A-Bomb.
Only conclusion you can draw from transcripts that the relationship
between
Heisenberg and Diebner must be terrible,they probably hated each other.


They did, a result of the competition for resources

Who else should you listen other than Deibner ?

No one , he is clear that Germany was never even close to developing
a nuclear weapon.

for example other fathers of
German bomb von Ardenne and Houtermans?

Nope, there was no bomb.

But they had unfortunately no time to
participate in PR efforts of western allies,they were building the Soviet
Bomb.

Using information from Los Alamos

Or you might want to check Daily Mail dated 8.9.45

I doubt it.

Keith

From: (Denyav)


Perfectly true, their reaction to the news of the Hiroshima
bomb was initially disbelief. They firmly believed they
were in the lead and since they 'knew' a bomb was years
away there was no way the western allies could have done this.

Farm Hall was a well the part of misinformation campaign of the victors.

First message they want convey was "German Scientist were unable to calculate
critical mass"
But they had a problem namely according Wehrmact documents a Wehrmact
physicist
(Deibner)calculated critical mass exactly and reported it to Wehrmact in
Feb.42.
So apparently German scientists forgat in Farm Hall what they knew in
Feb42!!.
So this misinformation campaign collapsed but another one launched to replace
it namely "Good German scientists (Heisenberg)sabotaged evil Nazis nuclear
bomb
making plans"
This could be good starting point for a Hollywood movie but licht years away
from the reality.Heisenberg could not sabotage anything because he was wrong
in
41 as he was in 45.
Only key person in German nuclear program who might have a reason to sabotage
program was Houtermans but his background was very well known,anything less
than success would mean sure death for Houtermans and probably for his
family.

BTW according to pre Farm Hall planning,only two of Farm Hall Guests supposed
to leave Farm Hall as free man.,but none of them got jailed.
Food for thought.


OK, good theory, a bit flawed here and there, but a good theory. Now prove it.
While you are at it prove your assertion the swine tested an a-bomb. Where was
it tested? What was its yield? Why did they not make a second one?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

He was never found , its hard to try a prisoner you dont have.

Nobody has ever made an attempt find him or launched an investigation to find
out his whereabouts at the first place.
Dare to compare this with the efforts to catch very low key Nazi criminals like
simple concentration camp guards.
Even his name appeared only once in allied documents.

As they did in all countries, Urenco a joint Dutch, German and UK firm
only perfected the technology in the 1960's

Prior to that everyone used a combination of diffusion and
cyclotron technologies

Almost all German centrifuge experts together with the most of intact equipment
of Skoda,Degussa and Auer companies were transferred to soviet union,thats the
reason why Soviet Union became suddenly world leader in centrifuge technology
after WWII,while centrifuge development elsewhere stalled.
In western world serious centrifuge develepment started to accelerate only in
mid mid to late fifties when Germans started to leave Soviet Union with their
wealth of experience.

No he guessed rather inaccurately that it was between 10 and 100 kg

Actually he calculated the exact amount used in Hirosima bomb.
Actually I recommend to anyone to check out all released (vast majority of them
are not released) Farm Hall transcripts,You will be surprised to see the level
of their knowledge about ignition mechanism used in Hirosima bomb.
A very bad editing job of CSDIC officials.

That may be Heisenberg's motivation
Or his assigned post WWII role.

Houtermans was scarcely a key player, he was in an industrial
lan for most of the war

Houtermans was the developer of German and soviet plutonium bomb.

They did, a result of the competition for resources

More likely ideological,Deibner was a hard liner,Heisenberg not.

No one , he is clear that Germany was never even close to developing
a nuclear weapon.

Really,then go to your local library and check out Washington Post dated
10.9.45 ,apparently days right after VE day were more open society type days
than we have today.
What does "close" mean?,they have even tested it.(and killed thousands of
German citizens,slave laborers etc).


Nope, there was no bomb.


There were two partially complete bombs AND they both were used.

Using information from Los Alamos

But US and USSR designs were very similar not surprisingly because they were
designed by the same Germans,but some had to die for a cover up story.
Without occupation of Germany Manhattan Project would be one of biggest and
most expensive failures in the human history.

I doubt it.
Then check out WP referred above.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
He was never found , its hard to try a prisoner you dont have.

Nobody has ever made an attempt find him or launched an investigation to
find
out his whereabouts at the first place.
Dare to compare this with the efforts to catch very low key Nazi criminals
like
simple concentration camp guards.
Even his name appeared only once in allied documents.


Bull****

A quick google search will turn up dozens of references to him


His name appears no less than 6 times in the opening statements
of prosecuting counsel at the Nuremburg trial where it was made
clear that he was high on the list of criminals being sought for
prosection.

Walter Dornberger who loathed Kammler reported that Kammler had ordered
his adjutant to shoot him so as not to fall into Russian hands.
Its is known for certain that he was NOT anongst the group
that surrendered to the Americans.

As they did in all countries, Urenco a joint Dutch, German and UK firm
only perfected the technology in the 1960's

Prior to that everyone used a combination of diffusion and
cyclotron technologies

Almost all German centrifuge experts together with the most of intact
equipment
of Skoda,Degussa and Auer companies were transferred to soviet union,thats
the
reason why Soviet Union became suddenly world leader in centrifuge
technology
after WWII,while centrifuge development elsewhere stalled.

Crap !

The first Soviet enrichment plant (unit D-1) was a gaseous diffusion plant,
building began in 1946 and the plant went on line in 1948. Three newer and
larger gaseous diffusion plants - D-3, D-4 and D-5 - were brought into
operation by 1953

The first Soviet centrifuge plant was built at Sverdlovsk-44 in 3 stages
between
1962 and 1964 and the Gaseous Diffusion plants remained in production
well into the 70's

In western world serious centrifuge develepment started to accelerate only
in
mid mid to late fifties when Germans started to leave Soviet Union with
their
wealth of experience.


Which would make it 10 years before it happened in the USSR.

This is of course another of your fairy tales. The simple reality
is that serious post war development started in 1964 in West Germany
with the founding of a state owned company called
"Gesellschaft fuer Kernverfahrenstechnik" (GKT) at Juelich.


On March 1, 1970 the company was privatised. After several
changes in the 70's, Hoechst AG (25 %), RWE (37.5 %) and
PreussenElektra (Veba, 37.5 %) became shareholders of the
newly founded Uranit GmbH.

On March 4, 1970, Germany, The Netherlands and the United
Kingdom signed the "Treaty of Almelo" for the development
and industrial exploitation of centrifuge technology to enrich uranium.

In 1971, the three industrial partners: British Nuclear Fuels plc (BNFL),
Ultra-Centrifuge Nederland N.V. (UCN) and Uranit GmbH founded
the jointly-owned Urenco Ltd in Marlow to market their enrichment services.

It was Urenco that jointly developed centrifuge technology to industrial
maturity during the mid-1970's. The first uranium enrichment plants were
built at Almelo in the Netherlands and at Capenhurst in the United Kingdom.

The German uranium enrichment plant at Gronau went into operation in 1985.

Stop making stuff up Denyav.


Keith

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
No he guessed rather inaccurately that it was between 10 and 100 kg

Actually he calculated the exact amount used in Hirosima bomb.
Actually I recommend to anyone to check out all released (vast majority of
them
are not released) Farm Hall transcripts,You will be surprised to see the
level
of their knowledge about ignition mechanism used in Hirosima bomb.
A very bad editing job of CSDIC officials.


Bull**** Denyav

The unedited Farm Hall Transcripts are available for around
$35

Operation Epsilon : The Farm Hall Transcripts, with an introduction
by Sir Charles Frank (Bristol and Philadelphia: Institute of Physics
Publishing; Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1993).


That may be Heisenberg's motivation
Or his assigned post WWII role.


His post war role was the director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute
for Physics in Gottingen

Houtermans was scarcely a key player, he was in an industrial
lan for most of the war

Houtermans was the developer of German and soviet plutonium bomb.

That he was not

Keith

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
They did, a result of the competition for resources

More likely ideological,Deibner was a hard liner,Heisenberg not.

No one , he is clear that Germany was never even close to developing
a nuclear weapon.

Really,then go to your local library and check out Washington Post dated
10.9.45 ,apparently days right after VE day were more open society type
days
than we have today.
What does "close" mean?,they have even tested it.(and killed thousands of
German citizens,slave laborers etc).


Nope, there was no bomb.


There were two partially complete bombs AND they both were used.

Using information from Los Alamos

But US and USSR designs were very similar not surprisingly because they
were
designed by the same Germans,but some had to die for a cover up story.

They are the same because Klaus Fuchs sent the designs to Moscow
via the Rosenbergs.

A cover up would require the active co-operation of

1) The Entire Los Alamos team
2) The entire German Nuclear development team
3) The entire Soviet team
4) The entire British Nuclear team
5) The German leaders tried at Nuremburg including
Hermann Goering
6) Joseph Stalin
7) Harry Truman
8) Winston Churchill
9) Nihls Bohr
10) Klaus Fuchs
11) Nikita Khruschev
12) Lavrenti Beria
13) Academician Ivan Kurchatov
14) Andrei Sakharov (a famous dissident)

Thats enough to be going on with I think

Without occupation of Germany Manhattan Project would be one of biggest
and
most expensive failures in the human history.

Newspapers arent the best source of history, especially in war time
when they are heavily censored and have little real data to publish

Keith

Bull**** Denyav

The unedited Farm Hall Transcripts are available for around
$

There is NO unedited Farm Hall,transcripts .
Would you please explain for what CSDIC stands for?
Farm hall "guests" were actually prisoners without any rights.
Even if you read "edited" Farm Hall documents carefully you will be amazed to
see that German scients were pretty informed about ignition mechanism of Little
Boy as if they designed it.


Houtermans was the developer of German and soviet plutonium bomb.

That he was not

He was the master of plutonium bomb development,and he is the Communist German
citizen that His Majesty's goverment risked a confrontation with Stalin just
before WWII for his safe return to Nazi Germany from stalins prison.
Why British gov't intervened for a German citizen jailed in Stalins' Soviet
Union?
Any Ideas?