Do you support establishing a US Club Class? Yes answers only!

Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.


Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

On Sep 21, 12:13*pm, Tim wrote:
Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.

Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

what would be the problem with running Sports Class and Club Class
nationals concurrently, like appears to be done in Australia. One big
happy handicapped contest. So then basically you'll have the same
contest as you do now but Club Class gliders will get scored
separately from the rest so the Club Class winner can go on the US
Team. Then the people on the World Team actually have won a national
contest. Plus, then who cares if only 5 pilots sign up for Club Class
and the other 50 fly for Sports Class. The 5 will run for the world
team and the 50 will fly for bragging rights and a trophy.

I don't know much about the history and current situation of Club
Class but it seems to me if you are going to qualify for the US Club
Class Team you should fly a Club Class glider as defined by the FAI.
Obviously Tim and Sean feel this way too.

In article
,
Tony wrote:



what would be the problem with running Sports Class and Club Class
nationals concurrently, like appears to be done in Australia. One big
happy handicapped contest. So then basically you'll have the same
contest as you do now but Club Class gliders will get scored
separately from the rest so the Club Class winner can go on the US
Team. Then the people on the World Team actually have won a national
contest. Plus, then who cares if only 5 pilots sign up for Club Class
and the other 50 fly for Sports Class. The 5 will run for the world
team and the 50 will fly for bragging rights and a trophy.

I don't know much about the history and current situation of Club
Class but it seems to me if you are going to qualify for the US Club
Class Team you should fly a Club Class glider as defined by the FAI.
Obviously Tim and Sean feel this way too.

Great idea! In fact, it's so good that it was done at Cordele this past
year. Sports and Club had similar tasks (a MAT and an assigned task can
be very similar if the CD is clever). I think everyone was happy with
the arrangement.

Everyone:

Great overall thread(s) on this subject with many good ideas and
comments to this dream of mine to bring Club Class to the shores of
the USA.

I agree with BB that "build it and they will come" is absolutely no
guarantee of short-term or long-term success for Club Class. Just look
at what happened to the World Class - sure they built it, but few ever
came to the party... no matter how good the party actually was or
could have been.

What Club Class supporters need to do now is 1) get together and let
each other know who is interested, 2) share and expand their passion
for this class and racing these older ships, 3) organize themselves
and contest organizers to a prolonged commitment to seeing if the
class works, 4) and come up with a plan of action - even if the first
step is convincing their local regional contest to ask for a club
class waiver AND promote the existence of a Club Class offering at
their next contest.

To that end, please join and tell your friends interested in Club
Class to join our facebook group:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=120361478018985

BB is correct when he says that the supports of Club Class need to get
off their rears and start making it happen.

Well, in fact, I suggested the idea of racing a Club Class at last
spring's Region 10N contest in Cherry Valley, AR. and we had a good
number of Club Class eligible gliders (9 entered). However, there were
a few/one glider that did not want to race in the FAI Class, and would
probably have not come to the contest otherwise. I told Micki and
Charlie that I wanted to see if a club class could work, but that I
did not want to freeze anyone out.

In retrospect, I should have stuck to my guns a little more and not
been so nice. Then we would have had two club class regionals
organized last year. And with 9 out of 10 glider in that sports class
being club class gliders, we effectively DID have another Club Class
regional last year.

Maybe Club Class supporters just have to make the commitment to this
push and realize that this push for Club Class at regionals as a first
step might just shut some people out from flying a handicapped class
if that affects the viability of sports class.

However, unless they are flying an open class ship, these pilots
turned away from sports class due to any "burgeoning" of Club Class
generally will still have a class to race in, albeit against newer
generation ships of their glider's class (i.e. in 15m, Std, 18m). They
might not like it, but we club class supporters need to think of our
own interests a little more rather than just sitting back and
accepting that Sports Class is the best racing opportunity we can
expect to ever get.

Team EY, Susan and I, are willing to lead this effort to organize a US
Club Class, but we will need the support of many more of you and the
support of the contest organizing world in general to make it happen.

Thanks,
Tim EY

On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim wrote:
Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.

Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

I'd fly it. Several people in my club would, also, but I'll let
them speak for themselves.

For that matter what's the possibility of doing exactly this at
next years Sports Nationals? Sarah flew in the club class
event at Cordele last year and has expressed an interest
in holding a club class event.

-- Matt

"Tim" wrote in message ...

.... Snip ...


Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?


Tim,

I have yet to enter a contest. I feel reluctant to drag my HP-14 to a location where I am competing with ASW-29s, etc. However, Club Class completion sound very appealing to me.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F

On Sep 21, 12:13*pm, Tim wrote:
Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I think you're mixing two issues: 1) having a contest labeled "club
class nationals" that only allows club gliders 2) getting the US team
committee to commit ahead of time to use the results of that contest,
and only that contest, to select world team members.

Issue #1 is pretty easy to solve. I can't speak for the entire RC, but
I would certainly support a request to run a "club class super
regionals" and probably even a "club class nationals." Heck, we allow
a "senior nationals" so why not. As with many big changes, it's worth
doing it by waiver for a few years to gauge success before permanently
changing rules. It would have to be inserted carefully in the contest
season --- the major objection to "club" is leaving the low
performance and older high performance gliders nowhere to fly, so it
should probably be on the other coast from the "sports nationals." But
it seems like a reasonable idea.

So, once again, if you want it, stop complaining and run it! Our major
problem is finding operators and CDs willing to run contests. We'll
look for your bid for next year. You might even be able to get one in
for the 2011 season if you hurry.

As for issue #2, well, try to understand the view of the very
reasonable people on the team committee. When they look at sports
class results under current rules, they see a very weak team; one that
US pilots are not likely in the end to support with our hard-earned
cash. (We've talked here about megabucks -- the real megabucks is what
it costs to go to the worlds, any worlds.) It would be pretty
irresponsible of them to change team selection rules to use results of
a class that has had a grand total of two contests, and has not
responded to the pilot and glider restrictions in sports class.

I know you feel that "build it and they will come," if only there were
a separate scoresheet and no asw27s buzzing around, we'd finally have
50 people at these nationals, not 10-14 that show up (and almost none
two years in a row) despite the 27s not being eligible for team
selection. But you have to understand that they really can't change
rules based on a theory. If you run some "sports class nationals" by
waiver, and lots of people show up, that is most likely to persuade
them.

You may say "people won't show up without team points." But they would
answer "people aren't showing up now, despite team points, so team
points must not be that important to the vast majority of pilots." And
the team rankings back them up, in every class. See here

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

It's blatantly obvious that even in 15, 18, standard and PW5 that no
more than 4 or 5 people care enough about team points to bother
showing up to the same contest two years in a row.

Anyway, that's my best guess at how the team committee thinks about
it, and addressing that point of view is the most likely route to
success.

Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

John Cochrane

On Sep 21, 3:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:13*pm, Tim wrote:

Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I think you're mixing two issues: 1) having a contest labeled "club
class nationals" that only allows club gliders 2) getting the US team
committee to commit ahead of time to use the results of that contest,
and only that contest, to select world team members.

Issue #1 is pretty easy to solve. I can't speak for the entire RC, but
I would certainly support a request to run a "club class super
regionals" and probably even a "club class nationals." Heck, we allow
a "senior nationals" so why not. As with many big changes, it's worth
doing it by waiver for a few years to gauge success before permanently
changing rules. It would have to be inserted carefully in the contest
season --- the major objection to "club" is leaving the low
performance and older high performance gliders nowhere to fly, so it
should probably be on the other coast from the "sports nationals." But
it seems like a reasonable idea.

So, once again, if you want it, stop complaining and run it! Our major
problem is finding operators and CDs willing to run contests. We'll
look for your bid for next year. You might even be able to get one in
for the 2011 season if you hurry.

As for issue #2, well, try to understand the view of the very
reasonable people on the team committee. *When they look at sports
class results under current rules, they see a very weak team; one that
US pilots are not likely in the end to support with our hard-earned
cash. (We've talked here about megabucks -- the real megabucks is what
it costs to go to the worlds, any worlds.) It would be pretty
irresponsible of them to change team selection rules to use results of
a class that has had a grand total of two contests, and has not
responded to the pilot and glider restrictions in sports class.

I know you feel that "build it and they will come," if only there were
a separate scoresheet and no asw27s buzzing around, we'd finally have
50 people at these nationals, not 10-14 that show up (and almost none
two years in a row) despite the 27s not being eligible for team
selection. But you have to understand that they really can't change
rules based on a theory. If you run some "sports class nationals" by
waiver, and lots of people show up, that is most likely to persuade
them.

You may say "people won't show up without team points." But they would
answer "people aren't showing up now, despite team points, so team
points must not be that important to the vast majority of pilots." And
the team rankings back them up, in every class. See here

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

It's blatantly obvious that even in 15, 18, standard and PW5 that no
more than 4 or 5 people care enough about team points to bother
showing up to the same contest two years in a row.

Anyway, that's my best guess at how the team committee thinks about
it, and addressing that point of view is the most likely route to
success.

Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

John Cochrane

John,

your post is full of positive comments and for that we are thankful,
however I think there might be an issue with what you are saying in
regards to ranking.

Let's take an example of the Sports Nationals in Elmira last year
where conditions were very weak. Sean Franke flew a Club Class glider.
He did very well beating some well known pilots. Sean was 3rd overall.
One can wonder if Sean had flown an ASG-29 (first place) or an ASW-27
(second place) what the results would have been like. Now if the first
two pilots flew Club Class gliders Sean's ranking might have been 100.
I know these pilots flying these modern gliders are exceptionally good
(one of the best), but no one will ever know what would have happened
if they flew Club Class gliders in these poor conditions. Maybe they
still would have won maybe not.

I think the point I am trying to make is that pilots dedicated to Club
Class might have difficult time getting good ranking through Sports
Class alone, especially in contests where weak conditions prevail.
Everyone knows contests are won or lost on weak days. While ASG-29 can
make another thermal LS-1F might end up in a field. Simply saying Club
Class pilots ranking is too low might not be representative of their
skills.

Sean was selected based on the Club Class rules. He did very well at
the WGC, I say much better than the pilots who were selected to the
Team prior to restricting team eligibility to pilots flying Club Class
gliders so obviously having a bigger pool of gliders in the past did
not translate to good results at the WGC. If I am wrong on this point
please correct me. It seems the current rules worked very well
selecting a top pilot to represent US in WGC.

Another point to consider is that maybe there is a different reason
for our Team not showing their best at WGC since the same problem
exists in other classes.

I hope the decision to change the rules of selection is going to be
reconsidered. I think it would be wise to give it some more time
especially since economic conditions of the last couple of years are
not conductive to large contest participation.

I no longer have any personal interest in this discussion since I no
longer fly a Club Class glider. The reason I speak up is because I
think proper recognition of this class is the only way to bring young
people to serious contest flying especially considering poor economy
we have. Let's look at the makeup of pilots in our contests. Who is
going to be flying in 10+ years?

The reason I speak up is because I
think proper recognition of this class is the only way to bring young
people to serious contest flying especially considering poor economy
we have.

Hi Andrzej,

Good point, but I submit this is not necessarily an issue that should
be regarding in the context of how it affects only youth.

There are a lot of us old farts who can't afford to own and operate
more costly than a Club Class glider--especially in this economy at
this exchange rate!--who desire the opportunity to compete seriously
within a class (Club) whose philosophy and tasking does *not* consider
the lack of ability/capability of the lowest common denominator
(Sports).

This distinction between Club and Sports is what I suspect many others
just don't get.

Regards,

Ray

On Sep 21, 12:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

The conclusion is that right now qualifying for the world team in Club
Class is not highly competitive, despite the fact that lots of pilots
(many of them highly ranked) compete in Sports Class nationals in the
US. If you can make it to two contests in three years and average out
to the top half of the score sheet you're good for the top slot. For a
second slot you don't even have to do that and you don't have to beat
the other Club Class gliders at the contests where you compete because
the effect of merely attending a second national contest gets you on
the team.

The other classes are in varying states of health, but none as bad as
Club Class:

Open Class isn't in great shape in terms of numbers, but at least
there you have 5-7 pilots who show up at 2-3 contests every three
years and the top three seeded pilots each have won a nationals. There
are 5 pilots above 80 points and three above 90.

World Class has a smaller number of even more dedicated pilots who
duke it out almost every year. Four pilots above 80 points, one above
90, but almost no participation beyond that.

Standard Class has a problem with broad, consistent attendance. Three
pilots above 80 points, all three of them above 90.

18 Meter Class is reasonably healthy. It has 10 pilots scoring above
80 points and four above 90.

15 Meter Class is the healthiest and most competitive with 14 above 80
points and 8 above 90. Twenty-six pilots in 15 Meter have flown
multiple national or international contests in the past three years.

The goal should be to get a cadre of Club Class pilots who can compete
at the top third of the scoresheet to go to two out of three Sports
Class Nationals and try to get their team selection points above 85 or
90 - or host a Club Class nationals that draws more than 15 pilots,
most with real competition track records. Until that actually happens
for a few years, I agree with the team selection committee, the best
bet is either to draw from the broader pool of pilots flying in Sports
Class or not field a Club Class team at all.

BTW, the contention that Club Class gliders can't compete in a
handicapped contest with modern ships is not consistent with the
facts.Just look at the scoresheets. There are Club ships in the top 10
- including at least one win at the national level. One Parowan super
regional was won by a Twin Astir - beating a world team pilot in a
modern ship. The handicaps, if anything favor Club class ships on
average.

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

9B