Super Hornets: I don't get it

Ed,

Having been out of the cockpit about three decades, I really can't say whether today's Prowler community "weasels" in the manner you describe. I can say though that trolling for SA-2s - including FAN SONG lock-on/high PRF indications and missile launch - were a part of the A-6B Intruder community's "job description" throughout the B's deployment during the VN conflict.

The A-6B was strictly a SAM hunter and not used for full-system night/IMC bombing like the A-6A. Each deploying A-6 squadron carried a mixed bag of 10 - 12 A-6As, usually 3 A-6Bs, and (later in the VN war) three or four KA-6Ds. The A-6B was a stopgap measure, cheaper than the Prowler, and only carried a crew of two. The B/N was strictly a weaponeer and not any kind of ECM guru, so losing a B and/or its crew did not entail as much "intelligence loss" risk as losing a Prowler. Also, at that time (1972) the Prowler was brand new and relatively dear. Add to that the then obvious winding down of the VN war and the fear of components from a pod or the Prowler itself falling into NVN/Soviet hands - and the reluctance to send Prowlers feet dry is understandable.

--
Mike Kanze

"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal."

- Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City


"Typhoon502" wrote in message oups.com...
On Nov 7, 7:27 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote:
Ed,

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas?

I think it's debatable..."Wild Weasel" to me is more about tactics
than what weapon is loaded. I can't imagine any Prowler pilot trying
to tease a SAM site into going live and hoping he can stuff a HARM
down the beam before they get a missile off. Growlers probably won't
be much more daredevilly even with the improved agility.

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:08:07 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
wrote:

Ed,

Having been out of the cockpit about three decades, I really can't say whether today's Prowler community "weasels" in the manner you describe. I can say though that trolling for SA-2s - including FAN SONG lock-on/high PRF indications and missile launch - were a part of the A-6B Intruder community's "job description" throughout the B's deployment during the VN conflict.

The A-6B was strictly a SAM hunter and not used for full-system night/IMC bombing like the A-6A. Each deploying A-6 squadron carried a mixed bag of 10 - 12 A-6As, usually 3 A-6Bs, and (later in the VN war) three or four KA-6Ds. The A-6B was a stopgap measure, cheaper than the Prowler, and only carried a crew of two. The B/N was strictly a weaponeer and not any kind of ECM guru, so losing a B and/or its crew did not entail as much "intelligence loss" risk as losing a Prowler. Also, at that time (1972) the Prowler was brand new and relatively dear. Add to that the then obvious winding down of the VN war and the fear of components from a pod or the Prowler itself falling into NVN/Soviet hands - and the reluctance to send Prowlers feet dry is understandable.

I had that same reluctance, but they made me go anyway!

Worked over the years as a partner with F-100F Weasels and F-105F
Weasels flying the F-105D model during Rolling Thunder and then during
Linbebacker I/II flew the F-4E as the "killer" element with the
F-105G. Got a couple of trips with an F-4C Weasel but they didn't have
the first class sensors that the 105G did. Never got to fly with an
F-4G, but by that time the mission had evolved to pretty much a
Weasel-only tactic without the ground-pounder element to kill the
detected site.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed,

I had that same reluctance, but they made me go anyway!

Likely for the same reason we A-6B guys had to.

IIRC, the Prowler cost ~$30 million a copy and each of its pods (usually carried 4) were about $1 million (1972 dollars). The crew consisted of 1 stick (~$175 thousand training cost) and 3 ECMOs (~$125 thousand each to train).

By contrast, the A-6Bs were all converted A-6As, so their incremental additional cost to the Gummint was pretty low and they were flown by a crew of 2 already tasked and trained for other work, who were then given the equivalent of about 2 weeks OJT on the mysteries of the B. Not an ideal solution, but a damn cost effective one.

The A-6E TRAM (which I never knew) combined the capabilities of the A and B, and incorporated the system upgrades that were piloted in the 12 A-6C models. The E became the Navy's all-purpose, all-wx attack platform, including the SAM hunting ability. The EA-6B gained HARM capability about the time the A-6 community was disestablished, and (I suspect) quite likely for that very reason.

Sidebar: Watching all 4 crew shell out of a Prowler in extremis is a bit like watching the 82nd airborne leave for work. Seats and chutes all over the place all at once. Especially colorful off a "cold" catapult shot.

--
Mike Kanze

"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal."

- Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:08:07 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
wrote:

Ed,

Having been out of the cockpit about three decades, I really can't say whether today's Prowler community "weasels" in the manner you describe. I can say though that trolling for SA-2s - including FAN SONG lock-on/high PRF indications and missile launch - were a part of the A-6B Intruder community's "job description" throughout the B's deployment during the VN conflict.

The A-6B was strictly a SAM hunter and not used for full-system night/IMC bombing like the A-6A. Each deploying A-6 squadron carried a mixed bag of 10 - 12 A-6As, usually 3 A-6Bs, and (later in the VN war) three or four KA-6Ds. The A-6B was a stopgap measure, cheaper than the Prowler, and only carried a crew of two. The B/N was strictly a weaponeer and not any kind of ECM guru, so losing a B and/or its crew did not entail as much "intelligence loss" risk as losing a Prowler. Also, at that time (1972) the Prowler was brand new and relatively dear. Add to that the then obvious winding down of the VN war and the fear of components from a pod or the Prowler itself falling into NVN/Soviet hands - and the reluctance to send Prowlers feet dry is understandable.

I had that same reluctance, but they made me go anyway!

Worked over the years as a partner with F-100F Weasels and F-105F
Weasels flying the F-105D model during Rolling Thunder and then during
Linbebacker I/II flew the F-4E as the "killer" element with the
F-105G. Got a couple of trips with an F-4C Weasel but they didn't have
the first class sensors that the 105G did. Never got to fly with an
F-4G, but by that time the mission had evolved to pretty much a
Weasel-only tactic without the ground-pounder element to kill the
detected site.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

In message , Mike Kanze
writes
Sidebar: Watching all 4 crew shell out of a Prowler in extremis is a bit like
watching the 82nd airborne leave for work. Seats and chutes all over the
place all at once. Especially colorful off a "cold" catapult shot.

Sounds... lively. I hope all four were recovered in usable condition?

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


pauldotjdotadam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

Paul,

Sounds... lively. I hope all four were recovered in usable condition?

In the one instance I observed (a very brief Naval Safety Center video clip of a cold cat shot off one of a carrier's waist cats) it appeared that all four souls were recovered successfully, although I suspect the helo crew was really pumping to do so. They may have had help from the planeguard destroyer's motor whaleboat, and it wouldn't surprise me if one or two of the crew came down "dry" on the deck after a swing in the straps. None of the aftermath was visible on the clip.

A very hairy situation, with maybe about 5 seconds from the crew's "shell out" decision until the bird hit the briny blue. Also quite a challenge for all of the rescuers to keep accurate count of seats, chutes, and souls, especially including where each soul finally lands.

--
Mike Kanze

"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal."

- Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
In message , Mike Kanze
writes
Sidebar: Watching all 4 crew shell out of a Prowler in extremis is a bit like
watching the 82nd airborne leave for work. Seats and chutes all over the
place all at once. Especially colorful off a "cold" catapult shot.

Sounds... lively. I hope all four were recovered in usable condition?

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


pauldotjdotadam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

I think you're a bit off in training cost. Even in 1972, by the time you get a guy through the TRACOM and the RAG it was over a mil a copy. These days? It probably costs that much in fuel!

R / John
"Mike Kanze" wrote in message news Ed,

I had that same reluctance, but they made me go anyway!

Likely for the same reason we A-6B guys had to.

IIRC, the Prowler cost ~$30 million a copy and each of its pods (usually carried 4) were about $1 million (1972 dollars). The crew consisted of 1 stick (~$175 thousand training cost) and 3 ECMOs (~$125 thousand each to train).

By contrast, the A-6Bs were all converted A-6As, so their incremental additional cost to the Gummint was pretty low and they were flown by a crew of 2 already tasked and trained for other work, who were then given the equivalent of about 2 weeks OJT on the mysteries of the B. Not an ideal solution, but a damn cost effective one.

The A-6E TRAM (which I never knew) combined the capabilities of the A and B, and incorporated the system upgrades that were piloted in the 12 A-6C models. The E became the Navy's all-purpose, all-wx attack platform, including the SAM hunting ability. The EA-6B gained HARM capability about the time the A-6 community was disestablished, and (I suspect) quite likely for that very reason.

Sidebar: Watching all 4 crew shell out of a Prowler in extremis is a bit like watching the 82nd airborne leave for work. Seats and chutes all over the place all at once. Especially colorful off a "cold" catapult shot.

--
Mike Kanze

"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal."

- Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:08:07 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
wrote:

Ed,

Having been out of the cockpit about three decades, I really can't say whether today's Prowler community "weasels" in the manner you describe. I can say though that trolling for SA-2s - including FAN SONG lock-on/high PRF indications and missile launch - were a part of the A-6B Intruder community's "job description" throughout the B's deployment during the VN conflict.

The A-6B was strictly a SAM hunter and not used for full-system night/IMC bombing like the A-6A. Each deploying A-6 squadron carried a mixed bag of 10 - 12 A-6As, usually 3 A-6Bs, and (later in the VN war) three or four KA-6Ds. The A-6B was a stopgap measure, cheaper than the Prowler, and only carried a crew of two. The B/N was strictly a weaponeer and not any kind of ECM guru, so losing a B and/or its crew did not entail as much "intelligence loss" risk as losing a Prowler. Also, at that time (1972) the Prowler was brand new and relatively dear. Add to that the then obvious winding down of the VN war and the fear of components from a pod or the Prowler itself falling into NVN/Soviet hands - and the reluctance to send Prowlers feet dry is understandable.

I had that same reluctance, but they made me go anyway!

Worked over the years as a partner with F-100F Weasels and F-105F
Weasels flying the F-105D model during Rolling Thunder and then during
Linbebacker I/II flew the F-4E as the "killer" element with the
F-105G. Got a couple of trips with an F-4C Weasel but they didn't have
the first class sensors that the 105G did. Never got to fly with an
F-4G, but by that time the mission had evolved to pretty much a
Weasel-only tactic without the ground-pounder element to kill the
detected site.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Kwyjibo" wrote in message
...

"Praetorian" wrote in message
...
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT
jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

True enough. I'm being a bit loose with the terminologies for the benefit
of the lowest common denominators.


You're dumbing things down so YOU can understand them??
Nice one Brash.

He might think so. But you'd have to ask him, not me.


--
"Don't believe everything you think".


--
Kwyj.