Tow cars and trailers

2.5L Subaru Outback. It handled better than towing it
with a slightly older (97) Chevy Tahoe 5.7L

While we're comparing tow vehicles, I currently have a Standard class
glider, with a typical fiberglass tube trailer. Tows fine up to as
fast as I want to go behind my '95 Dodge Dakote 4-cyl pickup. But
sometime in the future, that will wear out or I'll get tired of the
standard shift, and it'll be replaced. 2 vehicles interest me: the
Honda Ridgeline pickup, and the Subaru Baja (either at least 3 years
old, I'm done with new vehicles). Does anyone have any experience
with either of these for towing gliders?

tia,
Ed

It's a Class I hitch, with the 1-1/4' bar.

Sad story here. I just had the hitch replaced. Another
'School of Hard Knocks' diploma for my wall. I need
a larger wall.

The first hitch just about tore off the bottom of my
trunk. The hitch bolted to the central rear tie down
loop and also through the 'Oh Too Thin' sheet metal
of the bottom of the trunk. I recently found the bottom
of the trunk severely cracked with the spare tire about
to fall out. I think the damage was not from towing,
but from the times I was jacking up the front of the
trailer to release it from the hitch, but the connection
not releasing. So, I was just jacking up the rear
of the car and the front of the trailer. To get it
to release, I had to step on the draw bar (glad my
shoe is small enough to fit) and put a bit of weight
on it. I've since found keeping the ball and hitch
wiped clean before connecting allows them to separate
easily. Putting oil on the ball works, too, but attracts
dirt and then leaves this big ol' greasy spot on my
shin.

The trunk got welded up and a new style hitch installed.
This new hitch attaches to the same central tow loop
but instead of going into the thin (very, very thin)
sheet metal of the bottom of the trunk, the two arms
reach more forward where they can bolt into the 'frame
rails'. Holes already exist in the frame rails, so
no drilling was required for this hitch.

A couple of months ago, I also had a transmission oil
cooler added.

Neither the hitch nor the tranny cooler are supplied
by Honda.

I just returned from a 900 mile round trip of towing
the trailer to Cordele, Georgia and back. I haven't
noted a problem with the new hitch.

The only problem I have now after a week of flying
is that I'm back into the drudgery of work :-(

Ray


At 15:36 19 May 2007, Tuno wrote:
Ray, did you have trouble getting a classs III hitch
on your Accord?
(I assume the dealer wouldn't touch this?)

Jeep Liberty CRD
2.8L diesel. At 80 mph, I get 24 mpg running petroleum diesel; 22 mpg
running 100% biodiesel.
Not a bad compromise.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
Well, gas is $3.50/Gal in many parts of the US and who is to say it won't
be $4/gal next summer. This is starting to hurt - and getting me to think
of a more economical vehicle.

Many of us drive larger vehicles than we might otherwise choose simply to
pull our trailers 1% of the time. 99% of the time, we could be driving,
say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI diesel getting 45mpg. The problem isn't the
gas milage when towing a glider trailer. We don't do that often enough
for it to impact out annual fuel budget. The problem is a big SUV as a
daily driver.

So, are there any tricks here? One is to simply own two cars. One to
pull a trailer and another for a daily driver that gets good milage.
Paying license fees, insurance and other fixed costs for a vehicle driven
1% of the time seems outrageous though.

The other thread about surge brakes got me thinking WAY outside the box.
Is there a way for the trailer to be self-propelled? If one were to
install a load sensor in the trailer tongue that could sense the pull of
the tow vehicle as well as the push of an over-running trailer, could that
control a small power plant in the trailer that drove the trailer's
wheels? If done perfectly, a light towing vehicle might not feel the
trailer at all.

If the trailer power were electric, you would have a parallel, plug-in
hybrid. The car engine would charge the trailer batteries when they were
not needed for propulsion and the electrics would kick in on the hills.
Downhill regenerative braking would also charge the trailer batteries as
could large solar panels on the trailer.

It might work fine for a short commute to the glider field and maybe not
so well on a cross country trip but it's fun thinking about.

Bill Daniels

On May 18, 8:50 am, Bruce wrote:
Dan G wrote:
I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

*85% kerbweight - with 7% of the trailer's weight on the hitch or the
tow car's maximum, whichever is lower - is the maximum safe weight for
good stability, arrived at by the University of Bath in the 1990s when
they did instrumented testing and model simulation of tow cars and
trailer combinations.

Dan

Closed Trailer with a Std Cirrus in it is 680kg (54% is easily inside the
85%)The sail effect is a bigger decider for me - the trailer can push a smaller
car around when you are exposed to gusts at speed.

Hatchback weight is 1250Kg. Tows happily at the national speed limit, although
it does get a bit hard work in the mountains. Tops of our passes are around
2,300m MSL Nothing too bad for the small car to tow. Then I got into a Kestrel
T59D with one piece wings. It's trailer is unaerodynamic, heavy (900Kg) and
just plain huge.
The stability issue is in a different class. With nearly 2 tons of Wales' best
(XC70 is made in Wales not Sweden) and a really big polar moment on such a long
vehicle, the disturbance from trucks and wind is a lot lower. Fuel consumption
is not that different towing the trailer between the two - unless you get
irresponsible/inattentive with the speed. The control reserve is generally
bigger with the bigger car.
So stability is the primary towing reason for getting the barge - the other
reasons are indefensible. (It's hard making a logical case for something that
comes down to - "I like it".)In town the hatchback is the place to be - on the
open road or dirt roads the Volvo is a far nicer ride.

Cost - @ 2l/100km additional fuel is around 400litres per year. (roughly 100US
gallons)At ~R7/l (4USD/US gallon) that is quite a lot of money. In South Africa
the cost of my vehicular extravagance is equivalent to at least one tow per
month. I winch launch so the extra fuel for the trip to the airfield is close to
the cost of a winch launch.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A BMW Z3 is a great tow vehicle for light-weight trailers- it does not
sway and consumes little gas. When I got a heavier trailer, I decied
to give my Z3 a rest. Towing with a sedan was a constant battle, so I
didn't consider buyng a new vehicle with a hitch far beynd the
wheels. I found the idea vehicle - a V6 Rav 4. Great gas milage -24+
and around 20 MPG at 75 MPH with the trailer. Mounain passes are no
problem. It's is uneffected by trucks and strong cross-winds. The
tow package makes set-up easy and is certified for a much haevier tow
weight than we require. It doesn't beat the Z3's gas milage nor the
3's surprise factor, but the Rav is a real winner.

It's ok, Ray; keep paying into that social security
fund -- I need the money!

At 13:30 21 May 2007, Ray Lovinggood wrote:
It's a Class I hitch, with the 1-1/4' bar.

Sad story here. I just had the hitch replaced. Another
'School of Hard Knocks' diploma for my wall. I need
a larger wall.

The first hitch just about tore off the bottom of my
trunk. The hitch bolted to the central rear tie down
loop and also through the 'Oh Too Thin' sheet metal
of the bottom of the trunk. I recently found the bottom
of the trunk severely cracked with the spare tire about
to fall out. I think the damage was not from towing,
but from the times I was jacking up the front of the
trailer to release it from the hitch, but the connection
not releasing. So, I was just jacking up the rear
of the car and the front of the trailer. To get it
to release, I had to step on the draw bar (glad my
shoe is small enough to fit) and put a bit of weight
on it. I've since found keeping the ball and hitch
wiped clean before connecting allows them to separate
easily. Putting oil on the ball works, too, but attracts
dirt and then leaves this big ol' greasy spot on my
shin.

The trunk got welded up and a new style hitch installed.
This new hitch attaches to the same central tow loop
but instead of going into the thin (very, very thin)
sheet metal of the bottom of the trunk, the two arms
reach more forward where they can bolt into the 'frame
rails'. Holes already exist in the frame rails, so
no drilling was required for this hitch.

A couple of months ago, I also had a transmission oil
cooler added.

Neither the hitch nor the tranny cooler are supplied
by Honda.

I just returned from a 900 mile round trip of towing
the trailer to Cordele, Georgia and back. I haven't
noted a problem with the new hitch.

The only problem I have now after a week of flying
is that I'm back into the drudgery of work :-(

Ray


At 15:36 19 May 2007, Tuno wrote:
Ray, did you have trouble getting a classs III hitch
on your Accord?
(I assume the dealer wouldn't touch this?)

Jeep Liberty CRD
2.8L diesel. At 80 mph, I get 24 mpg running petroleum diesel; 22 mpg
running 100% biodiesel.
Not a bad compromise.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message

Bill,

I'd agree, that sounds good. I looked into one of those a couple of
years ago, but ended up not doing anything about it. How do you like
the way it drives, and how big of a guy are you? How much diesel
noise do you have when driving it? I've owned several diesels, most
recently a 1982 MB 300SD. Shot it due to old age and too many things
broken, too bad, it was among the best cars I've ever driven. My
attraction to the Jeep is somewhat reduced by the experience I had
once with a rental Cherokee, maybe in about 1987. Biggest pos I ever
drove. Have they gotten it better in the Liberty? I know that the
engine will last forever, but will the car? What's the mpg with the
general mix of everyday city and country driving?

Thanks,
Ed

"flying_monkey" wrote in message
ps.com...
Jeep Liberty CRD
2.8L diesel. At 80 mph, I get 24 mpg running petroleum diesel; 22 mpg
running 100% biodiesel.
Not a bad compromise.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message

Bill,

I'd agree, that sounds good. I looked into one of those a couple of
years ago, but ended up not doing anything about it. How do you like
the way it drives, and how big of a guy are you? How much diesel
noise do you have when driving it? I've owned several diesels, most
recently a 1982 MB 300SD. Shot it due to old age and too many things
broken, too bad, it was among the best cars I've ever driven. My
attraction to the Jeep is somewhat reduced by the experience I had
once with a rental Cherokee, maybe in about 1987. Biggest pos I ever
drove. Have they gotten it better in the Liberty? I know that the
engine will last forever, but will the car? What's the mpg with the
general mix of everyday city and country driving?

Thanks,
Ed


The Jeep Liberty post wasn't from me but I can add a comment. My '94 Jeep
Grand Cherokee Ltd. turned 250,000 miles a couple of months ago. The engine
and transmission have never been touched. All the body, electronics and
suspension systems still work perfectly. It doesn't even rattle. The
leather seats look new. It consumes 1 Qt of oil in 4000 miles. Although it
has required some maintenance, it's still the most reliable vehicle I've
ever owned.

In fact, there's a lot of electronic systems in the vehicle and none have
ever failed or required any maintenance. Where maintenance has been
required is in the mechanical systems. The bearings in the front and rear
axles just wore out at about 225K miles ($1200). I replaced the water pump
($45) once and the radiator ($100) three times. In-tank fuel pumps are a
real pain but I replaced that with a $100 aftermarket in-line pump that I
can change on the roadside with a screwdriver in 15 minutes.

Even with extremely capable 4WD and a 5.2L V8, I get 24 MPG (10L/100km) on
the highway. Add a heavy trailer and hot mountain roads and it drops to
19MPG.

With the optional diesel engine, the Liberty looks great. A local pilot
bought one to tow a ASK-21 trailer. I'm watching to see how it works out.

Bill Daniels

I like it a lot.
I'm 6', 180 lb--plenty of leftover headroom, hip room and shoulder room.
City mpg is 2-3 mpg lower.
I liked the Cherokee I had a few years back--put about 140k miles on that
one and sold it for a lot more than I expected to. Pretty happy w/Jeep
products.

"flying_monkey" wrote in message
ps.com...
Jeep Liberty CRD
2.8L diesel. At 80 mph, I get 24 mpg running petroleum diesel; 22 mpg
running 100% biodiesel.
Not a bad compromise.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message

Bill,

I'd agree, that sounds good. I looked into one of those a couple of
years ago, but ended up not doing anything about it. How do you like
the way it drives, and how big of a guy are you? How much diesel
noise do you have when driving it? I've owned several diesels, most
recently a 1982 MB 300SD. Shot it due to old age and too many things
broken, too bad, it was among the best cars I've ever driven. My
attraction to the Jeep is somewhat reduced by the experience I had
once with a rental Cherokee, maybe in about 1987. Biggest pos I ever
drove. Have they gotten it better in the Liberty? I know that the
engine will last forever, but will the car? What's the mpg with the
general mix of everyday city and country driving?

Thanks,
Ed

On May 20, 9:37 am, Bullwinkle wrote:
On 5/20/07 6:24 AM, in article
om, "Doug Hoffman"



wrote:
On May 18, 7:05 am, Dan G wrote:
I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

The maximum towing capacity is specified by the vehicle manufacturer.
The Passat TDi may or may not be rated for up to 3,000lbs.

My Neon 2.0L with manual transmission (less than $14,000 new)
routinely gave me 33-38 mpg depending on driving cycle. It could
easily pull my 15m glider with its 2,000lb towing rating. I wonder
how much a Prius is rated for towing?

gasoline-elctric hybrids

The Prius stickers at around $24,000. The full government rebate is
limited to the first 60,000 Prius per model year (about $3,000):

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/...dtaxcredit.htm

If I miss out on the full government rebate then I would pay up to
$10,000 more than the Neon to drive a vehicle which I doubt will tow
my glider. Let's not even consider the extra cost for maintenance and
repairs or battery replacement costs.

For $10,000 I can drive my conventional technology Neon over 87,000
miles, assuming gasoline is $4/gal and 35mpg. And still tow my glider
most places (albeit less than 35mpg while towing).

Btw, I think vehicles like the Prius are great. But they are no
silver bullet (I know you didn't claim they were).

(Going a bit further OT):
If we truly believe what Al Gore is saying, then we would all
immediately stop using anything that creates CO2 and other greenhouse
gases (I guess we should still allow ourselves to breath as our bodies
do create CO2 and water vapor, both GHGs). Park all cars and trucks
permanently. Ground all airplanes and so forth. As far as
inconvenience to daily life, so what? We are talking about saving the
planet, right (at least according to Gore and some others)? Maybe
even if Gore believed what he is saying he would stop living in a huge
house that consumes many times the energy of the average US house. Or
is that four houses he owns?

Regards,

-Doug

Apologize if I missed this elsewhere in the thread, but FYI the Prius is
prohibited from towing, per the owner's manual.

The Highlander Hybrid is OK for towing, per its owner's manual.

Regards,
Bullwinkle

Actually the biggest advantage of the hybrids (for towing) is that the
electric drive gets its best
torque at 0 rpm. This allows you to get a good start without
overtaxing your
engine or transmission. This also improves the highway mileage
because a smaller
gas engine can power the car -- most of the power in a conventional
car is used
for low speed torque and power, and only around 15% is needed for
maintaining your
highway speed.

The hybrids wind up wearing much more slowly as a result. When I
did my first oil change at 5K miles on mine the oil looked unused.
I've also seen
picture of the brake pads on a hybrid that showed no wear after 110K
miles, since
most of the braking effort comes from electrical generation. The
brake pads only
get used once your speed drops to around 6mph or less.

On May 21, 9:24 am, Ray Lovinggood
wrote:
It's a Class I hitch, with the 1-1/4' bar.

Sad story here. I just had the hitch replaced. Another
'School of Hard Knocks' diploma for my wall. I need
a larger wall.

The first hitch just about tore off the bottom of my
trunk. The hitch bolted to the central rear tie down
loop and also through the 'Oh Too Thin' sheet metal
of the bottom of the trunk. I recently found the bottom
of the trunk severely cracked with the spare tire about
to fall out. I think the damage was not from towing,
but from the times I was jacking up the front of the
trailer to release it from the hitch, but the connection
not releasing. So, I was just jacking up the rear
of the car and the front of the trailer. To get it
to release, I had to step on the draw bar (glad my
shoe is small enough to fit) and put a bit of weight
on it. I've since found keeping the ball and hitch
wiped clean before connecting allows them to separate
easily. Putting oil on the ball works, too, but attracts
dirt and then leaves this big ol' greasy spot on my
shin.

The trunk got welded up and a new style hitch installed.
This new hitch attaches to the same central tow loop
but instead of going into the thin (very, very thin)
sheet metal of the bottom of the trunk, the two arms
reach more forward where they can bolt into the 'frame
rails'. Holes already exist in the frame rails, so
no drilling was required for this hitch.

A couple of months ago, I also had a transmission oil
cooler added.

Neither the hitch nor the tranny cooler are supplied
by Honda.

I just returned from a 900 mile round trip of towing
the trailer to Cordele, Georgia and back. I haven't
noted a problem with the new hitch.

The only problem I have now after a week of flying
is that I'm back into the drudgery of work :-(

Ray

At 15:36 19 May 2007, Tuno wrote:

Ray, did you have trouble getting a classs III hitch
on your Accord?
(I assume the dealer wouldn't touch this?)

Ray, I tried taking your minivan remark from the other day to heart
(note to others: this was spoken at the airfield, so don't try to find
it on RAS!)
and fixed up my wife's old Voyager. It didn't hurt to see Frank
Paynter's
setup when he was at Perry, either.

However, my efforts at being nice to its transmission have resulted in
a small river of transmission fluid flowing away from it in the
parking lot
this afternoon. I'm still sticking to the Toyota pickup for now...