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Russia joins France and Germany



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 5th 03, 09:11 PM
captain!
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Default Russia joins France and Germany


"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...=18346&lang=en

TASHKENT - Russia added its skeptical voice Friday to those of France
and Germany by saying that a UN resolution proposed by Washington to
set up a multinational force in Iraq needed a lot more work.

"The US draft is moving toward principles (supported by Russia) but
for them to be outlined (in the resolution) in full, the document
needs very serious work," Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov told
reporters.

"This initiative deserves attention because the draft resolution in
part reflects principles that Russia had been repeatedly fighting
for," Russia's top diplomat added while attending a meeting of
regional foreign ministers in the Uzbek capital.

France and Germany -- nations that along with Russia bitterly opposed
the US-led war -- have already expressed opposition to the new
resolution and the Kremlin said French President Jacques Chirac called
his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin on Friday to discuss the latest
standoff with Washington.

The first consultations on the draft were due to begin Friday in New
York.
The draft US resolution does not explicitly place the United States in
charge of the force. But it says the United States would report to the
Security Council on efforts undertaken by the international
contingent.

The resolution also gives the United Nations a role in deciding a
timetable for a democratic government to be established. Russia --
which has sought a central role for the United Nations in Iraq -- has
veto power on the world-governing body as a permanent UN Security
Council member. So does China, whose Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing was
more cautious in his criticism of the US plan at the Tashkent talks
Friday. "Iraq needs a government which will have the support of all
the Iraqi people and Iraq's neighbors. The situation in Iraq needs to
be returned to the framework of the United Nations." China has for the
large part tried to keep out of the Iraqi dispute and preserve its
relations with both the peace and war camps. The Chinese foreign
ministry released a separate statement saying Beijing was
"conscientiously studying" the new draft and was taking a
"constructive attitude ... and hopes that all sides can reach a
consensus as soon as possible."

Moscow is also taking steps to repair any damage done by Iraq to its
US relations ahead of this month's Camp David summit between US
President George W. Bush and Putin. Putin had said earlier that Moscow
saw nothing negative in an international force in Iraq under US
command.


russian forces under US command? you must hate the very thought eh michael?


And Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov hinted for the first time Thursday
that Russia may send peacekeepers to Iraq in response to Washington's
pleas for additional international help. But the Russian foreign
minister on Friday appeared to quash such suggestions by saying that
Russia's participation was "not realistically being examined."


he likes to keep everyone guessing.


And he unleashed unexpected criticism of Washington's handling of the
daily violence raging in occupied Iraq. "I'm surprised that several of
Washington's representatives say that in Iraq the situation is getting
better and better -- but day by day the situation gets worse and worse
and requires the help of the international community," the foreign
minister said.


why is he surprised? it is similar to what the russian govt. did for years
in chechnya.


  #2  
Old September 6th 03, 01:32 AM
Aida Lott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Once again Michael proves himself a complete idiot.

Putin is a pragmatist. He will side with Germany and France when he thinks
he can score a few points and he will side with America when he thinks he
can score a few points. Ultimately, befriending America's economy is far
more important to Putin and Russia than the economies of France and Germany.
Shroeder are Chirac are sufferring under delusions of grandeur if they think
Putin is squarely on their side.



  #3  
Old September 6th 03, 01:47 AM
Tarver Engineering
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Aida Lott" wrote in message
et...

Once again Michael proves himself a complete idiot.

Putin is a pragmatist. He will side with Germany and France when he thinks
he can score a few points and he will side with America when he thinks he
can score a few points. Ultimately, befriending America's economy is far
more important to Putin and Russia than the economies of France and

Germany.
Shroeder are Chirac are sufferring under delusions of grandeur if they

think
Putin is squarely on their side.


Putin wants his $8 billion.


  #4  
Old September 6th 03, 08:48 AM
Michael Petukhov
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"captain!" wrote in message ...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...=18346&lang=en


Moscow is also taking steps to repair any damage done by Iraq to its
US relations ahead of this month's Camp David summit between US
President George W. Bush and Putin. Putin had said earlier that Moscow
saw nothing negative in an international force in Iraq under US
command.


russian forces under US command?


Why not? Russian forces were under operative US command in Bosnia and Kosovo.
It does not matter in fact. Everybody understand that those forces if
needed will be out of US command in a one second.

you must hate the very thought eh michael?


Not at all. I do not base my opnions on hate etc. Although I remember
about true interests of my country. I lived for three years near
US 4-th corp HQ in Germany and knew some of its officers. generally
good guys. In my personal view US military is best part of US society.
It is absolutely no problem to be under their command, providing
of course it does goes well with our own interests, which is
a very different question.




And Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov hinted for the first time Thursday
that Russia may send peacekeepers to Iraq in response to Washington's
pleas for additional international help. But the Russian foreign
minister on Friday appeared to quash such suggestions by saying that
Russia's participation was "not realistically being examined."


he likes to keep everyone guessing.


His job is to use words carefully.



And he unleashed unexpected criticism of Washington's handling of the
daily violence raging in occupied Iraq. "I'm surprised that several of
Washington's representatives say that in Iraq the situation is getting
better and better -- but day by day the situation gets worse and worse
and requires the help of the international community," the foreign
minister said.


why is he surprised?


Because it is obvious lie I guess.

it is similar to what the russian govt. did for years
in chechnya.


it is not true. 90% of chechens voted to be normal part of russia
in a recent referendum. Although difficult there is a political
solution for chechenya as a part of russia. What we see now is
final stages of war actions in that area. Can you say the same for
US in Iraq? Money does not solve all problems, Captain. Never did.

Michael
  #5  
Old September 6th 03, 10:45 AM
captain!
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
"captain!" wrote in message

...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...=18346&lang=en


Moscow is also taking steps to repair any damage done by Iraq to its
US relations ahead of this month's Camp David summit between US
President George W. Bush and Putin. Putin had said earlier that Moscow
saw nothing negative in an international force in Iraq under US
command.


russian forces under US command?


Why not? Russian forces were under operative US command in Bosnia and

Kosovo.
It does not matter in fact. Everybody understand that those forces if
needed will be out of US command in a one second.

you must hate the very thought eh michael?


Not at all. I do not base my opnions on hate etc. Although I remember
about true interests of my country. I lived for three years near
US 4-th corp HQ in Germany and knew some of its officers. generally
good guys. In my personal view US military is best part of US society.
It is absolutely no problem to be under their command, providing
of course it does goes well with our own interests, which is
a very different question.




And Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov hinted for the first time Thursday
that Russia may send peacekeepers to Iraq in response to Washington's
pleas for additional international help. But the Russian foreign
minister on Friday appeared to quash such suggestions by saying that
Russia's participation was "not realistically being examined."


he likes to keep everyone guessing.


His job is to use words carefully.



And he unleashed unexpected criticism of Washington's handling of the
daily violence raging in occupied Iraq. "I'm surprised that several of
Washington's representatives say that in Iraq the situation is getting
better and better -- but day by day the situation gets worse and worse
and requires the help of the international community," the foreign
minister said.


why is he surprised?


Because it is obvious lie I guess.

it is similar to what the russian govt. did for years
in chechnya.


it is not true. 90% of chechens voted to be normal part of russia
in a recent referendum. Although difficult there is a political
solution for chechenya as a part of russia. What we see now is
final stages of war actions in that area. Can you say the same for
US in Iraq? Money does not solve all problems, Captain. Never did.

Michael


i was not refering to the present time. what about when the war was still
young?the russian govt. routinely tried to make the situation seem better
than it was, just like the americans are now, and just like every country
does.


  #6  
Old September 6th 03, 06:52 PM
Mikhail Medved
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Aida Lott" wrote in message . net...
Once again Michael proves himself a complete idiot.


Not really. Michael is right.


Putin is a pragmatist. He will side with Germany and France when he thinks
he can score a few points and he will side with America when he thinks he
can score a few points. Ultimately, befriending America's economy is far
more important to Putin and Russia than the economies of France and Germany.


Not at all. Trade between Russia and US is negligible while with
Europe, especially Germany, it is substantial. The US don't
participate in any economic development plans while Germany and France
do. It is funny to read this because in reality as far as Russia is
concerned, the US may not exist at all. There is no real leverage
whatsoever. All external dependencies are in the EU, with Germany
being the biggest partner.

Shroeder are Chirac are sufferring under delusions of grandeur if they think
Putin is squarely on their side.


Putin is squarely on his own side.
  #7  
Old September 6th 03, 09:47 PM
Michael Petukhov
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"captain!" wrote in message a...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message

it is not true. 90% of chechens voted to be normal part of russia
in a recent referendum. Although difficult there is a political
solution for chechenya as a part of russia. What we see now is
final stages of war actions in that area. Can you say the same for
US in Iraq? Money does not solve all problems, Captain. Never did.

Michael


i was not refering to the present time. what about when the war was still
young?the russian govt. routinely tried to make the situation seem better
than it was, just like the americans are now, and just like every country
does.


Oh in that sense... Well not only russians and americans.
human nature I guess... I just finished reading very fresh book
on battle of Kursk with first published german and soviet
official military reports before, during and after
that final german disaster in east front. Very funny reading.
Imagine soviet reports were much much more closer to the reality.
while according to german reports all these disasters after
disaters were just fine well planed operations with excellent
output. The book includes also Soviet and German newspaper
papers published in that time on that matters. German
materials were just nothing more than **** propaganda. Although
soviet press publications also included highly overestimated
numbers for German losses but generally the picture of
the events was pretty close to real one as we know it now.
So it seems there are problems with Stalin standard legend of
****ty propaganda.

Michael
  #8  
Old September 6th 03, 09:48 PM
Michael Petukhov
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"captain!" wrote in message a...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message

it is not true. 90% of chechens voted to be normal part of russia
in a recent referendum. Although difficult there is a political
solution for chechenya as a part of russia. What we see now is
final stages of war actions in that area. Can you say the same for
US in Iraq? Money does not solve all problems, Captain. Never did.

Michael


i was not refering to the present time. what about when the war was still
young?the russian govt. routinely tried to make the situation seem better
than it was, just like the americans are now, and just like every country
does.


Oh in that sense... Well not only russians and americans.
human nature I guess... I just finished reading very fresh book
on battle of Kursk with first published german and soviet
official military reports before, during and after
that final german disaster in east front. Very funny reading.
Imagine soviet reports were much much more closer to the reality.
while according to german reports all these disasters after
disaters were just fine well planed operations with excellent
output. The book includes also Soviet and German newspaper
papers published in that time on that matters. German
materials were just nothing more than **** propaganda. Although
soviet press publications also included highly overestimated
numbers for German losses but generally the picture of
the events was pretty close to real one as we know it now.
So it seems there are problems with Stalin standard legend of
****ty propaganda.

Michael
  #9  
Old September 7th 03, 12:09 AM
captain!
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
"captain!" wrote in message

a...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message

it is not true. 90% of chechens voted to be normal part of russia
in a recent referendum. Although difficult there is a political
solution for chechenya as a part of russia. What we see now is
final stages of war actions in that area. Can you say the same for
US in Iraq? Money does not solve all problems, Captain. Never did.

Michael


i was not refering to the present time. what about when the war was

still
young?the russian govt. routinely tried to make the situation seem

better
than it was, just like the americans are now, and just like every

country
does.


Oh in that sense... Well not only russians and americans.


the iraqis did it too. it was also funny to see the iraqi defense minister
claiming that the americans were nowhere near bagdad while bombs were
falling in the background.


human nature I guess... I just finished reading very fresh book
on battle of Kursk with first published german and soviet
official military reports before, during and after
that final german disaster in east front. Very funny reading.
Imagine soviet reports were much much more closer to the reality.
while according to german reports all these disasters after
disaters were just fine well planed operations with excellent
output. The book includes also Soviet and German newspaper
papers published in that time on that matters. German
materials were just nothing more than **** propaganda. Although
soviet press publications also included highly overestimated
numbers for German losses but generally the picture of
the events was pretty close to real one as we know it now.
So it seems there are problems with Stalin standard legend of
****ty propaganda.


are you saying that there was ****ty propaganda about stalin or that stalin
had problems with (writing) ****ty propaganda?


Michael



  #10  
Old September 7th 03, 08:57 AM
Michael Petukhov
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"captain!" wrote in message .ca...

human nature I guess... I just finished reading very fresh book
on battle of Kursk with first published german and soviet
official military reports before, during and after
that final german disaster in east front. Very funny reading.
Imagine soviet reports were much much more closer to the reality.
while according to german reports all these disasters after
disaters were just fine well planed operations with excellent
output. The book includes also Soviet and German newspaper
papers published in that time on that matters. German
materials were just nothing more than **** propaganda. Although
soviet press publications also included highly overestimated
numbers for German losses but generally the picture of
the events was pretty close to real one as we know it now.
So it seems there are problems with Stalin standard legend of
****ty propaganda.


are you saying that there was ****ty propaganda about stalin or that stalin
had problems with (writing) ****ty propaganda?


Difficult to say... Although there is little doubt that in
Stalin times soviet press often lied and generaly was used
for propaganda. Where it was (and is) not? But clearly the
picture was more complex than that simplistic views. Stalin
is known to severely purnish those who lied to him. As result of
that intentional lie in a official reports in his times
was very rare. particularly war time reports of Red Army
general stuff are considered to be the most complete and
reliable source of data for WWII in east front by many
serious reserachers including also western historians.
David Glantz for instance noted that very clearly. As for press
it lied if there was a good purpose and a direct order but
simulteniously if there were no good reason and durect
order to lie it could also be quite trueful. So as usual
one have to look in details and from different prespectives
and sources to find out what was the true. For insance
I would like that modern russian press provide the same
quality of materials about Chechenya war as it was done
by "Red Star" newspaper in 1943 about battle of Kursk.
So it is simple lie to say that soviet press lied all the
time on all matters.

Michael



Michael

 




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