Flying in the USA vs. Europe

As many of you know, I'm currently on a "barnstorming tour" around the
Eastern half of America, flying wherever the weather is best, and
enjoying the scenery along the way. Since Sunday we've flown from
Iowa City, IA to First Flight (Kill Devil Hills, NC), to Ocracoke
Island, to Beaufort, NC, to Huntsville, Alabama, to Memphis,
Tennessee. We'll be flying home tomorrow, completing a relatively
simple VFR flight of 1977 miles.

Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying
on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same
expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in
Europe:

London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna,
Austria
Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy
Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain

During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries,
with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of
Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched
the Eastern Seaboard.

Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with
minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and,
of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with
no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price
per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it
really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good
ol' U.S. of A.

It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this
flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical
standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
(Presently in Memphis, TN)
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck writes:

Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying
on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same
expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in
Europe:

London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna,
Austria
Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy
Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain

Not particularly stunning to me. It's just simple geography.

During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries,
with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of
Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched
the Eastern Seaboard.

Nothing surprising about that, either. Every country in Europe has its own
rules for flight, often loosely based on ICAO rules, but still with enough
complications to make flight vastly more complicated in Europe.

Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with
minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and,
of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with
no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price
per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it
really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good
ol' U.S. of A.

It's mainly just a fortuitous consequence of the size of the country.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Its size is one of the advantages of living in the United States,
instead of one that's not quite twice the size of Colorado (and
getting one's kicks out of simulated flying here)..



.. e size of, say, . On Mar 15, 10:34 pm, Mxsmanic
wrote:
Jay Honeck writes:
Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying
on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same
expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in
Europe:

London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna,
Austria
Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy
Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain

Not particularly stunning to me. It's just simple geography.

During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries,
with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of
Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched
the Eastern Seaboard.

Nothing surprising about that, either. Every country in Europe has its own
rules for flight, often loosely based on ICAO rules, but still with enough
complications to make flight vastly more complicated in Europe.

Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with
minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and,
of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with
no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price
per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it
really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good
ol' U.S. of A.

It's mainly just a fortuitous consequence of the size of the country.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
As many of you know, I'm currently on a "barnstorming tour" around the
Eastern half of America, flying wherever the weather is best, and
enjoying the scenery along the way. Since Sunday we've flown from
Iowa City, IA to First Flight (Kill Devil Hills, NC), to Ocracoke
Island, to Beaufort, NC, to Huntsville, Alabama, to Memphis,
Tennessee. We'll be flying home tomorrow, completing a relatively
simple VFR flight of 1977 miles.

Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying
on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same
expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in
Europe:

London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna,
Austria
Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy
Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain

During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries,
with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of
Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched
the Eastern Seaboard.

Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with
minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and,
of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with
no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price
per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it
really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good
ol' U.S. of A.

It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this
flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical
standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it?

Well for a start, it would require considerably more planning but bank on
avgas costing in the region of $9 a gallon.

The particular issues would be understanding the different airspace rules.

Leaving somewhere around London, you would need to avoid the London TMA
which is class A from the surface around Heathrow and with a base of 2500'
for a considerable distance after that.

First thing would be to perhaps land ay Lydd and top off the tanks and get
duty free gas but it will cost you $20 to do so. You can clear customs
there. Then across the English Channel to say Le Touquet in France. Must
give them 2 hours notice so customs will be ready again. Get there over for
lunchtime and you may have to wait. About $15 to land.

This is when you really need to study the map. Lots of restricted airspace
(for the French airforce) and many airfields, the problem being that only
French is spoken at them.

France is where you get class E airspace for the first time (there is non in
England).

If you choose the charts from each country you will find that they are all a
bit different. Jeppesen do a Europe wide set with a same look but the are
crap.

Again as you mosey round Paris there is loads of low level class A to avoid,
so its off over Germany.

Here you will need to ensure you have a noise certificate. No certificate
then the landing fees will be more than if you have a certificate.

and so it goes on...

As far as talking to ATC is concerned, the European ATC have better English
accents than many places in the US where frankly they could be speaking a
foreign language. But they are strict on correct RT.

Affirmative is not allowed, a-ffirm is the correct term, (avoids confusion
with negative)

It only gets better and such trips are often done. It makes flying more of a
challenge but more interesting.

Jay Honeck schrieb:
It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this
flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical
standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it?

I would refuse to be called your brother, but to answer your question:

If you fly IFR, it's no deal at all. Just file your flight plan and go.

If you (as me) fly purely VFR, a bit more preparation is needed, but
it's not frightening at all. Granted, you can't just hop in your plane
and leave, such a flight needs some preparation. For me, this is a main
part of the fun: I go to other places which are actually different, and
I expect them to be so. Culture is different, rules are different,
language is different, food is different, people are different...
There's just no point in travelling when everything is the same.

European countries adhere to the ICAO rules, but each country has its
particularities. You could go the hard core route and wade through all
the AIPs of those contries. Nearly nobody does this. (I'm one of those
rare maniacs who do, but I'm somewhat particular in this.) Most just buy
(besides the maps, of course) the Jeppesen Bottlang of those countries,
an essential for such a flight. It not only contains all the VACs, but
all those particularities are nicely listed on three pages per country.
Read them, accept them, adhere to them. No big deal at all. Your
described flight would have taken maybe three days to prepare for a
first timer, and not more than your flight in the USA if you already
know the rules of the countries involved.

Actually, it's a basic mindset. US Americans often expect the whole
world to be the same as it is at home, more or less. If something is
different, then it's a hassle. Europeans on the other hand grow up in a
world which is a patchwork of small countries, each with its
particularities. They take the differences as ganted. Actually, it's
this what makes living in Europe interesting. I admit that this is
grossly oversimplified, but you get the idea.


As to the financial question: Yes, flying in Europe is a lot more
expensive. Take a factor of 2 as a rough estimate.

Stefan

Jay,

It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this
flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical
standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it?


What are you trying to get at? We all know flying is more expensive
here. That's the same for short and long flights.

Other than that, crossing borders just requires a little more planning,
filing a flight plan and possibly a requirement to land at a select
airport of entry. The differences in rules from country to country, if
they apply, are often minimal - and they are spelled out in detail in
the Jeppesen charts you'd have to get anyway. So you read up on that.
Oh, if you avoid the UK, that saves you a lot of trouble, since they
are not as integral a part of the EU as most countries in continental
Europe.

That's all. No big deal.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Chris,

no offense meant, but I fail to see the impact of the "problems" you make of a simple long-distance
trip.

bank on
avgas costing in the region of $9 a gallon.

That's the way it is in Europe, no matter how far you fly.

Leaving somewhere around London, you would need to avoid the London TMA
which is class A from the surface around Heathrow and with a base of 2500'
for a considerable distance after that.

So what? It's on the map. Class A is a non-VFR space everywhere in the world. And the basic process of
avoiding airspace can be found everywhere, too.

First thing would be to perhaps land ay Lydd and top off the tanks and get
duty free gas but it will cost you $20 to do so.

There's a landing fee. Another fact of flying in Europe, no matter how far.

You can clear customs
there. Then across the English Channel to say Le Touquet in France. Must
give them 2 hours notice so customs will be ready again.

So you do that. Or you chose an airport with 24H customs. You're crossing a border, coming from a
country refusing to sign the Schengen accord. What do you expect?

This is when you really need to study the map. Lots of restricted airspace
(for the French airforce) and many airfields, the problem being that only
French is spoken at them.

Ah. Just try English. It's a non-issue. And the restricted airspace cn mostly be crossed after talking
to a controller.

France is where you get class E airspace for the first time (there is non in
England).

So? How does that complicate your flying there?

If you choose the charts from each country you will find that they are all a
bit different. Jeppesen do a Europe wide set with a same look but the are
crap.

I beg to differ. I use them regularly for my flying.

Again as you mosey round Paris there is loads of low level class A to avoid,
so its off over Germany.

Again: Are we pretending there's no airspace in the US? At least we don't have a King-like president
bringing his restricted airspace wherever he travels on a whim.

Here you will need to ensure you have a noise certificate. No certificate
then the landing fees will be more than if you have a certificate.

A money thing. And we know flying is more expensive in Europe...

As far as talking to ATC is concerned, the European ATC have better English
accents than many places in the US where frankly they could be speaking a
foreign language.

Yup.

Affirmative is not allowed, a-ffirm is the correct term, (avoids confusion
with negative)

That's ICAO standard.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jay, there are counties in Texas bigger than countries in Europe...

denny

On Mar 16, 2:31 am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
As many of you know, I'm currently on a "barnstorming tour" around the
Eastern half of America, flying wherever the weather is best, and
enjoying the scenery along the way. Since Sunday we've flown from
Iowa City, IA to First Flight (Kill Devil Hills, NC), to Ocracoke
Island, to Beaufort, NC, to Huntsville, Alabama, to Memphis,
Tennessee. We'll be flying home tomorrow, completing a relatively
simple VFR flight of 1977 miles.

Just for fun, I have overlaid the flight plan we're currently enjoying
on a map of Europe. The results are stunning, to me, as for the same
expenditure of time we could easily have flown the following route in
Europe:

London, United Kingdom (completely over-flying Germany) to Vienna,
Austria
Vienna, Austria to Milan, Italy
Milan, Italy to Madrid, Spain

During this flight we would have overflown nine (or more) countries,
with all the complications inherent with that task, covering much of
Europe. By comparison, this flight in America has barely scratched
the Eastern Seaboard.

Considering that our current flight has been almost effortless, with
minimal contact with air traffic control (VFR flight following, and,
of course, interaction with control towers at larger airfields), with
no landing fees, only a couple of parking fees, and the highest price
per gallon of avgas paid (thus far) pegged at $4.10 per gallon, it
really is a truism that you simply can't beat GA flying in the good
ol' U.S. of A.

It would be an interesting (if frightening) exercise to see what this
flight in Europe would entail, from a financial as well as technical
standpoint. Can any or our European brethren take a whack at it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
(Presently in Memphis, TN)
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

As others already have mentioned, it is just more expensive and it
takes somewhat more preperation.
Looking at your European route, some mountain flying lessons are
needed, you will be in the Alps.

-Kees.

BTW On a world map continental Europe appears to be larger than
continental US.

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message ...
Other than that, crossing borders just requires a little more planning,
filing a flight plan and possibly a requirement to land at a select
airport of entry. The differences in rules from country to country, if
they apply, are often minimal - and they are spelled out in detail in
the Jeppesen charts you'd have to get anyway. So you read up on that.
Oh, if you avoid the UK, that saves you a lot of trouble, since they
are not as integral a part of the EU as most countries in continental
Europe.

That's all. No big deal.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I think that many pilots here in the US that live far from borders think of
it as a hassle to fly past them. Just as some pilots think it is a major
issue to fly over water. But try flying in the State of Florida, for one
we are surrounded by water and we have an international crossing
on all sides but one. And we are not talking about a major distance.

For example: Bahamas are only 45 miles away and they have landing
requirements and customs decals that must be purchased prior to leaving
the mainland. The Bahamian government understands that many
pilots on the mainland feel it would be too difficult to visit them that
they have created a free DVD that you can get from their website that
explains how easy it is to come to their country.

On the other coast of Florida you have Mexico that you
can fly to and they also have customs to deal with, but it has been
a non-issue on the trips we have made. If anything, returning to the
US has been where the really travel issues have started.

Oh and let me not forget that if you travel south out of Florida just
90 miles you'll be shot down no questions asked.
I think it is all up to what your accustom to, I have friends that don't
fly to south Florida because of all the restricted airspace and class
B airports in that area, but it has never been an issue for those that
do it day in and day out.

And to my fellow US Pilots: How often do you get to log a destination
that does not start with a K?
Does your log book even use the four letter ICAO?
Or has travel been so limited to US destinations only that there is
no need to differentiate?

TTFN - (not an airport code)

David